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Nice and simple.Why cheat if you can beat the game?Half of you saying that you would cheat say you can beat this game.You can throw the whole fend for family excuse out the window because youre already making money beating the game fair right?So lets be honest with ourselves. You cheaters out there.....youre doing it because your greedy, slefish, money hungry assholes right?
I said I wouldn't do it.Just becuase you're beating the game fairly, doesn't mean that you can't be SLAUGHTERING IT (at a higher level) for 100 times that amount by cheating.Most of the people who said "yes" said it was more because they probably couldn't say no to the opportunity. Your last line is really unnecessary and really dumb.
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RoyalTour,I get lost with so many quotes, so I won't quote a quote of a quote, you know what I mean?Counting cards in blackjack is cheating. You know that, right? Also, you're talking about less than a 1% advantage in the odds by doing so.So, I guess when you move all in with KK and someone calls with AA, you've made a mistke how? It's the correct move to push with KK, mathematically speaking. The edge in poker is not in knowing what your opponent has, it's knowing how to play the game properly. Pushing with hands that are 80% or over is ALWAYS correct. The choice is yours to develop the skill to determine if your KK is against AA in the right time.the argumanets can be made for both sides of the coin. But if you really think that the described scenarios of cheating are ok, then more power to you. I'll refer you to my previous post on the subject of morality.
By law in Canada counting cards is not illegal. Maybe the casino considers it cheating. But what you are doing is memorizing previous cards.Not wrongYou are seriously confused.listen, when you see your opponent holds AA, ,you wont even limp into the pot anymore.do you see why?
Yes, I am confused. I never said card counting is illegal. The past 15 years I've spent as a white collar crime and public corruption investigtor and serving as an undercover player in illegal, crooked casinos around the country has left me confused about the gambling laws in the United States. Card counting is not an illegal act, true. It is, however, cheating, and cheating in this manner is generally covered in most States by a statute known as "Theft by Deception". While most card counters end up not going to jail, it's sort of like Internet gambling. It's illegal in your jurisdiction, but who really wants to take the time out of their already overworked day to mess with misdemeanor bullsh!t. To answer a previously posed question, $440,000 was the average weekly take home amount that 2 guys who ran a casino that had 175 cracked slot machines working for them did. They offered me the amount to change my testimony in the case against them. I didn't and they were convicted, fined $650,000 apiece and had their business license pulled. Plus they now have pending charges of trying to bribe a Gov't official.don't seem to understand what I post, take ideas out of context and try to use them against me, and generally have no idea what you're talking about. This went from a simple debate about the morality of cheating to once again, bashing theose who go against the grain of an obviously twisted group of individuals who have no concept of reality. It's not even a matter of morality with you people.And yes, if an opponent doesn't raise his AA, even if I know he has it, I'll limp in, BECAUSE LIMPING WITH AA IS AN INCORRECT PLAY, and I know my EV is positive if I flop 2 pair or a set against his AA.Do you see why you should quit playing poker? You only think about the here and now. If that was the case, I would have quit because I got one outed in PLO 3 times yesterday to the tune of $300. But I'm still up over $9000 this year.
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I never said that seeing your opponents cards wasn't an advantage. Learn to read before you start calling people stupid.I said that cheating in cards was stupid and wrong. I also said that it is evident that those people who are so good at making verbatim quotes from SS have no idea what they are talking about, because Doyle and Mike Caro both clearly state, in summary, that your game play should be dicatated by making the right decisons, reagardless the overall oucome of the hand. You will not make the right decisions, as related to poker, if you could see that your opponent hit his one outer on the river and fold everytime. In fact, in SS, there is a line that says you should play your hand the correct way, all the time, even if you could see you opponents cards.If this concept is confusing to any of you, let me be the first to dispense the favorite line her:Quit playing poker, you have no idea what you are doing.
No one called you stupid, we simply questioned your post.what you are saying about doyle and caro is true, however, the statement, "even if you can see your opponents cards" is simply that. a Statement, which is used to help get the idea into the readers head.They want to carve in the idea that you shouldnt get discouraged, because your KK lost to AA, calling with KK is the correct move.But this is simply a system resulted from math.If you can actually see the opponents cards, you will not play your hand mathematically.Its comon sense, Mike Caro would even agree that folding KK when you see ur opponent raised with AA is +EV.Now You're telling me to quit poker because i have no idea what i'm doing, But if you are seriouse about calling with KK when u see he has AA, well i dont even know how to finish this sentence its so ridiculous
Actually, CaneBrain called me stupid. That's where that came from. But he always misquotes me and calls me stupid. I just usually ignore it.
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Hypothetical question. If you where given a software program that displayed other players cards at your table would you play and make $ or throw it away because of whatever your reason.Personnaly i would not do this because you are cheating and stealing money from people who play poker because mostly they enjoy the game and get enjoyment from winning based on there skills.Very curious to see what the poll results would be.
Only on PokerStars because I wouldn't feel guilty stealing money from donks and chasers.
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Yes, I am confused. The past 15 years I've spent as a white collar crime and public corruption investigtor and serving as an undercover player in illegal, crooked casinos around the country has left me confused about the gambling laws in the United States. Card counting is not an illegal act, true. It is, however, cheating, and cheating in this manner is generally covered in most States by a statute known as "Theft by Deception". While most card counters end up not going to jail, it's sort of like Internet gambling. It's illegal in your jurisdiction, but who really wants to take the time out of their already overworked day to mess with misdemeanor bullsh!t.To answer a previously posed question, $440,000 was the average weekly take home amount that 2 guys who ran a casino that had 175 cracked slot machines working for them did. They offered me the amount to change my testimony in the case against them. I didn't and they were convicted, fined $650,000 apiece and had their business license pulled. Plus they now have pending charges of trying to bribe a Gov't official.don't seem to understand what I post, take ideas out of context and try to use them against me, and generally have no idea what you're talking about. This went from a simple debate about the morality of cheating to once again, bashing theose who go against the grain of an obviously twisted group of individuals who have no concept of reality. It's not even a matter of morality with you people.And yes, if an opponent doesn't raise his AA, even if I know he has it, I'll limp in, BECAUSE LIMPING WITH AA IS AN INCORRECT PLAY, and I know my EV is positive if I flop 2 pair or a set against his AA.Do you see why you should quit playing poker? You only think about the here and now. If that was the case, I would have quit because I got one outed in PLO 3 times yesterday to the tune of $300. But I'm still up over $9000 this year.1st off. Card counting is Not illegal. You agree with that since you're a investagoratotary person and so on.you do understand that casino's operate on private property, and the only time a card counter can be prosecuted is if they are asked to leave, and they return for trespassing?You cannot charge a person for using their mind to memorize and count cards.2nd - i didnt say the person limped with AA, i said, if he raised with AA and i had KK, i also said, if i had KK and i saw he had AA, i wouldnt even limp. Knowing that he will probably raise when it gets to him.You are asking people to read. Do it yourself.

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Actually, CaneBrain called me stupid. That's where that came from. But he always misquotes me and calls me stupid. I just usually ignore it.Actually he called ur idea and post stupid.Not a direct insult to you being stupid. Simply what you wrote was stupid

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i'd love to say no....but i honestly cant say if i would do it or not. my greed probably would get the better of me..i am ashamed to say that, but i think its the truth...wow i suck at life.... :club:

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If there was a program to do your job for you and you still got paid would you use it?
Absolutely. I write those programs all the time. Employees who actually try to improve their productivity are a rare and valuable commodity. This is usually brought up as a plus in my reviews.
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Yes, I am confused. The past 15 years I've spent as a white collar crime and public corruption investigtor and serving as an undercover player in illegal, crooked casinos around the country has left me confused about the gambling laws in the United States. Card counting is not an illegal act, true. It is, however, cheating, and cheating in this manner is generally covered in most States by a statute known as "Theft by Deception". While most card counters end up not going to jail, it's sort of like Internet gambling. It's illegal in your jurisdiction, but who really wants to take the time out of their already overworked day to mess with misdemeanor bullsh!t.To answer a previously posed question, $440,000 was the average weekly take home amount that 2 guys who ran a casino that had 175 cracked slot machines working for them did. They offered me the amount to change my testimony in the case against them. I didn't and they were convicted, fined $650,000 apiece and had their business license pulled. Plus they now have pending charges of trying to bribe a Gov't official.don't seem to understand what I post, take ideas out of context and try to use them against me, and generally have no idea what you're talking about. This went from a simple debate about the morality of cheating to once again, bashing theose who go against the grain of an obviously twisted group of individuals who have no concept of reality. It's not even a matter of morality with you people.And yes, if an opponent doesn't raise his AA, even if I know he has it, I'll limp in, BECAUSE LIMPING WITH AA IS AN INCORRECT PLAY, and I know my EV is positive if I flop 2 pair or a set against his AA.Do you see why you should quit playing poker? You only think about the here and now. If that was the case, I would have quit because I got one outed in PLO 3 times yesterday to the tune of $300. But I'm still up over $9000 this year.1st off. Card counting is Not illegal. You agree with that since you're a investagoratotary person and so on.you do understand that casino's operate on private property, and the only time a card counter can be prosecuted is if they are asked to leave, and they return for trespassing?You cannot charge a person for using their mind to memorize and count cards.2nd - i didnt say the person limped with AA, i said, if he raised with AA and i had KK, i also said, if i had KK and i saw he had AA, i wouldnt even limp. Knowing that he will probably raise when it gets to him.You are asking people to read. Do it yourself.
Here we go. First, point out where I said that card counting was illegal. I said it was cheating. Later, I exlplianed how, in this couintry, the laws have been used to prosecute cheaters. You chose to take that as me saying card counting was illegal. My bad for your lack of understanding.2nd, the scenario you posed was, "If your opponent has AA, you wouldn't even limp in". That implies that no raise has been made and the opportunity to limp in exists. At no point did you ever mention raise, check, bet, or any other wagering language. You simply stated that you wouldn't even limp in if you knew your opponent held AA. But again, you misread, misquote and clearly have no idea how to process the words your brain is absorbing.
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yes you are still being stupid. its their fault that they lost it anyway, not yours, you had nothing to do with it so just take it. you said it yourself, even they look at you like you are crazy, becuase you are.
The poster is not being stupid here (though you ARE being insulting). They are probably not really returning the $2 item for fear that it will cause the store owner(s) problems. They are returning it because they would not feel honest about keeping something they didn't pay for. It's about them and their internal feelings more than anything -- and thus is not ridiculous, stupid, or any other insulting word you want to attach.You need to seriously look up the word "integrity" in the dictionary. I don't think everyone would feel the same way about the $2 item and I wouldn't think badly of someone who didn't return to the store if they felt such an action was out of proportion to their feelings. But I do think anyone who would ridicule another person for trying to what they felt was right is a person everyone else would be wise to avoid.
no one should feel bad about getting off of paying for a $2 item becuase the store didnt charge them, and they could not control what happened. that is stupid, and a problem with how someone lives their life. something so small shouldnt cause you a second thought, you have problems if it does. thats all there is to it.
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RoyalTour,I get lost with so many quotes, so I won't quote a quote of a quote, you know what I mean?Counting cards in blackjack is cheating. You know that, right? Also, you're talking about less than a 1% advantage in the odds by doing so.So, I guess when you move all in with KK and someone calls with AA, you've made a mistke how? It's the correct move to push with KK, mathematically speaking. The edge in poker is not in knowing what your opponent has, it's knowing how to play the game properly. Pushing with hands that are 80% or over is ALWAYS correct. The choice is yours to develop the skill to determine if your KK is against AA in the right time.the argumanets can be made for both sides of the coin. But if you really think that the described scenarios of cheating are ok, then more power to you. I'll refer you to my previous post on the subject of morality.
Wow arent you the fountain of wrong today. Counting cards is not cheating. This has been established by the court system of New Jersey if you want a concrete example (Ken Uston's famous blackjack lawsuit against the Atlantic City casinos in the 80s)You may be a person of good morals but you suck at facts.Edit: I'm sorry if you think I call you stupid too much Agsa.....I was merely saying the idea that seeing someone else's hole cards was not an advantage was a stupid thought.However you know what? I am now officially calling you stupid. You have insisted over and over that card counting is cheating.Sorry its not. You are not changing the game. You are only using your brain to maximize your chances. And the only time this issue was brought to bear in court the card counter won the case.Now casinos are private businesses so they can throw you out if they suspect you of counting cards. But they cant have you arrested for cheating.Its not a question of "is it worth their time". They jsut cant do it becaue you are not cheating. (Except in Monte Carlo where the high prince Ranier made a law stating that card counting was cheating. that would never happen in the USA however).So I am sorry if you are offended by me calling you stupid. But if you want to keep saying things that are false than me calling you stupid is a consequence.
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agsa,You continue to take what i write as misscommunication. There is no problem with understanding my posts. We both aggree that card counting is not illegal. And we both aggree that i my example of AA vs KK isnt the best.This is all besides the point. Just admitt you were a fool to think seeing your opponents hole cards is not an advantage if you are a good player.My examples can easily be switched to something you can understand easier.YOu have 2 cards that are the same. ok., yes yes, i know, they are pretty.and the flop comes, and now you have 3 cards that are the same. and you bet and get called all the way to the river. Your hand didnt improve, You have 3 of a kind. But the river gave an opponent a straight that he was chasing.Now you will fold. right?

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I feel that the animals who have taken thousands off of me calling all-ins with gutshots or other garbage draws, are owed a few beatings. I wouldn't mind using it to get back to even online.

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I feel that the animals who have taken thousands off of me calling all-ins with gutshots or other garbage draws, are owed a few beatings. I wouldn't mind using it to get back to even online.
This is a retarded post.If you're willing to cheat becuase you're "ok" with it at some level, then say so.Luck is an inherent part of the game and the people took your money fairly (even though it may have been only through their own stupidity and good luck). Saying that you want to cheat to steal their money is as wrong for you as it would be for Daniel Negreanu to do it.
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Nice and simple.Why cheat if you can beat the game?Half of you saying that you would cheat say you can beat this game.You can throw the whole fend for family excuse out the window because youre already making money beating the game fair right?So lets be honest with ourselves. You cheaters out there.....youre doing it because your greedy, slefish, money hungry assholes right?
I said I wouldn't do it.Just becuase you're beating the game fairly, doesn't mean that you can't be SLAUGHTERING IT (at a higher level) for 100 times that amount by cheating.Most of the people who said "yes" said it was more because they probably couldn't say no to the opportunity. Your last line is really unnecessary and really dumb.
I admit it was a little harsh, but that was intended. Cheating is cheating. Period. If you cheat, you are a greedy, selfish asshole. NO excuses.What if you caught somebody cheating you in game you were in? Would go ahead and say "meh..no problem...he had the oppotunity to do it"I understand you said you would not do it and thats great. But why try to find excuses for those that would do it.This should not even be a discussion. Its disgusting to think there are that many players out there willing to cheat.
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Ok, the only reason card counting is considered "cheating" to anyone is because it's possible the house will lose money. :shock: Oh no, how could they?When high rollers come in and count cards poorly, the casino will do nothing about it because it is in their best interest. A good card counter comes in, and boom! they're swarming like hawks. They might cry fowl when a card counter beats them, but they went about it in a perfectly honest manner. If they don't like it, they can change the game or it's odds if they truly want more money.Royal Tour said

You cannot charge a person for using their mind to memorize and count cards.
agreed. Especially when the game calls for you to use your head if you want any chance to make some money.
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agsa,You continue to take what i write as misscommunication. There is no problem with understanding my posts. We both aggree that card counting is not illegal. And we both aggree that i my example of AA vs KK isnt the best.This is all besides the point. Just admitt you were a fool to think seeing your opponents hole cards is not an advantage if you are a good player.My examples can easily be switched to something you can understand easier.YOu have 2 cards that are the same. ok., yes yes, i know, they are pretty.and the flop comes, and now you have 3 cards that are the same. and you bet and get called all the way to the river. Your hand didnt improve, You have 3 of a kind. But the river gave an opponent a straight that he was chasing.Now you will fold. right?
I thought we'd covered this. I never said that seeing your opponents hole cards wasn't an advantage. I have clearly said the opposite a few posts ago, where I stated:"I never said seeing your opponents hole cards wasn't an advantage, I said it was cheating." But since you won't let it go, I agree that seeing your opponents hole cards is in fact, an advantage. When the dealer or player accidently flashes cards, I take full advantage of it. I recognize that having that edge is an advantage. I've never, ever argued against that. I stated, again, for the 25th time, that what the OP and subsequent idiots were arguing was cheating, wrong, immoral and against the nature of the game they act so knowledgable about. YOU chose to misunderstand that point and drag it out to a pointless debate that clearly demonstrates your ignorance. While you do dispense a fair bit of poker knowledge, another valuable poker lesson you should carry into life is knowing when to quit. You apparently don't. You continue to argue points that you claim are mine, but are in fact, your attempt to twist my words around to fit your reality. Hey CANEBRAIN, nice cite. But again, I'll pose the same question to you as previously posed to others:WHERE DID I SAY THAT CARD COUNTING WAS ILLEGAL?I didn't, I said it was cheating. Also, for your information, the landmark case Uston v. Resort International Hotel was not about card counting or cheating, it was a case about the rights of a property to ban certain individuals for no apparent reason.The legal issue of card counting being illegal or cheating had no bearing on this case, other than the fact that Uston was banned for counting cards. The courts ruled that this alone was not sufficient grounds to ban him from the casino floor. It further ruled that for a casino to remove a person from its floor, the person had to be disrupting the daily operation of the casino. But it is a PROPERTY CASE, not a gambling case.
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I thought we'd covered this. I never said that seeing your opponents hole cards wasn't an advantage. I have clearly said the opposite a few posty ago, where I stated: Unless you changed your mind in a very secertive manner,You actually said. Knowing your opponents cards shouldnt matter because you should make the same play wether you can see them or not.This to me, means you think knowing the persons cards is useless to a good strong text book player

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agsa,You continue to take what i write as misscommunication. There is no problem with understanding my posts. We both aggree that card counting is not illegal. And we both aggree that i my example of AA vs KK isnt the best.This is all besides the point. Just admitt you were a fool to think seeing your opponents hole cards is not an advantage if you are a good player.My examples can easily be switched to something you can understand easier.YOu have 2 cards that are the same. ok., yes yes, i know, they are pretty.and the flop comes, and now you have 3 cards that are the same. and you bet and get called all the way to the river. Your hand didnt improve, You have 3 of a kind. But the river gave an opponent a straight that he was chasing.Now you will fold. right?
I thought we'd covered this. I never said that seeing your opponents hole cards wasn't an advantage. I have clearly said the opposite a few posty ago, where I stated:"I never said seeing your opponents hole cards wasn't an advantage, I said it was cheating." Hey CANEBRAIN, nice cite. But again, I'll pose the same question to you as previously posed to others:WHERE DID I SAY THAT CARD COUNTING WAS ILLEGAL?I didn't, I said it was cheating. Also, for your information, the landmark case Uston v. Resort International Hotel was not about card counting or cheating, it was a case about the rights of a property to ban certain individuals for no apparent reason.The legal issue of card counting being illegal or cheating had no bearing on this case, other than the fact that Uston was banned for counting cards. The courts ruled that this alone was not sufficient grounds to ban him from the casino floor. It further ruled that for a csino to remove a person from its floor, the person had to be disrupting the daily operation of the casino. But it is a PROPERTY CASE, not a gambling case.
I never said you said it was illegal. You keep saying its cheating. Its not cheating to count cards at blackjack. If it was they would have card counters arrested and put in jail. You dont think casinos would use that publicity to try and "persuade" card counters to stop.Yes the Uston case was a property case. But you are splitting hairs. During that case, it was specifically stated that card counting was not cheating. Because if it was cheating then there is no way the court would have ruled in his favor. Does this not make sense to you??So to recap....no I am not saying you are wrong for saying card counting is illegal. (the fact you keep repeating that line makes you sound so dumb its unfathomable)the whole time I have said YOU ARE WRONG WHEN YOU SAY CARD COUNTING IS CHEATING. IT IS NOT CHEATING TO COUNT CARDS. Is that clear enough???
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I thought we'd covered this. I never said that seeing your opponents hole cards wasn't an advantage. I have clearly said the opposite a few posty ago, where I stated: Unless you changed your mind in a very secertive manner,You actually said. Knowing your opponents cards shouldnt matter because you should make the same play wether you can see them or not.This to me, means you think knowing the persons cards is useless to a good strong text book player
Royal we are wasting our time with this mental midget. I keep saying counting cards IS NOT CHEATING.He writes back when did I say it was illegal....I said it was cheating. And we are left to be scratch our heads and wonder if he is a schizo.In your argument he is conveniently ignoring the line you pointed out above. Its just his way.
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I can cite other sources if you like.Ben Mezrich's book Bringing down the House is a good start. Book about a bunch of MIT kids who used an advanced card counting team to win millions. Casinos caught on and barred them.No one was ever arrested for cheating though even though they won millions with their system. Why was no one arrested? Because CARD COUNTING IN BLACKJACK IS NOT CHEATING PERIOD. If it was the casinos would have had them thrown in jail like they do with all people who actually try to cheat. (and the penalties for being caught cheating in a Vegas casino are very very severe.)Your argument about the particulars of Uston's case prove how asinine you are being.You say Uston merely won a case saying he could not be barred from a casino for counting. And you are also saying card counting is cheating.Therefore using your logic, the Supreme court of New Jersey decided that a casino cannot bar a patron from their casino for cheating. do you really think that is the case? the fact is Uston won the case because card counting is not cheating and the NJ courts refused to let casinos bar a man for doing something that was not cheating. The only reason Vegas courts dont do the same is because the casinos run the show there whereas in jersey they dont.

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I thought we'd covered this. I never said that seeing your opponents hole cards wasn't an advantage. I have clearly said the opposite a few posty ago, where I stated: Unless you changed your mind in a very secertive manner,You actually said. Knowing your opponents cards shouldnt matter because you should make the same play wether you can see them or not.This to me, means you think knowing the persons cards is useless to a good strong text book player
Royal we are wasting our time with this mental midget. I keep saying counting cards IS NOT CHEATING.He writes back when did I say it was illegal....I said it was cheating. And we are left to be scratch our heads and wonder if he is a schizo.In your argument he is conveniently ignoring the line you pointed out above. Its just his way.
LOL.. i'm starting to see this
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I think this is a really interesting question. I'd like to think I would not use this hypothetical program if I had the opportunity, if only bc I don't think, in the long run, it would be good for my "soul" (or "psyche," for you athiests, "state of being," for you existentialists out there). It's like the proverbial deal with the devil, selling your soul for some sort of material gain... in an allegorical sense all this means is that when you do something that goes against your moral character (or at least what "should" be your moral character), it starts a slow and steady corrosion of the soul that will only lead to your being an inwardly miserable, empty person somewhere down the line. And I don't think it's a question of "faith," as one previous poster claimed, because that presupposes that only people of faith are moral people, which is ridiculous. It's a question of personal morality, and of knowing what you're setting yourself up for in the grand scheme of things for a little (or even a lot of) monetary gain.

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I think this is a really interesting question. I'd like to think I would not use this hypothetical program if I had the opportunity, if only bc I don't think, in the long run, it would be good for my "soul" (or "psyche," for you athiests, "state of being," for you existentialists out there). It's like the proverbial deal with the devil, selling your soul for some sort of material gain... in an allegorical sense all this means is that when you do something that goes against your moral character (or at least what "should" be your moral character), it starts a slow and steady corrosion of the soul that will only lead to your being an inwardly miserable, empty person somewhere down the line. And I don't think it's a question of "faith," as one previous poster claimed, because that presupposes that only people of faith are moral people, which is ridiculous. It's a question of personal morality, and of knowing what you're setting yourself up for in the grand scheme of things for a little (or even a lot of) monetary gain.
its an old saying: "character is what guides you when no one is looking"anyone can be a good person with all eyes on them.....those who are good even if they would get away with being bad are the truly moral.however, I honestly dont know what I would do with access to a program like this. I think at first I would be so tempted and eventually use it for a few days and then be disgusted with myself and stop. It is not easy to just turn down free money especially when no one would know and you cant see the people you are hurting. But I dont think I could use a program like this indefinitely....I would soon enough become too upset with myself knowing I am winning unfairly.
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