would you cheat????

[CaneBrain 95]

Again, I'm am elated at the way people offer up such insight into their character and their true level of understanding the game.Why is it that so many people in this community are so quick to point out how little the cards matter, how you have to play the man, not the cards, etc. would also be the first to jump on the chance to have the opportunity to see your opponents cards as the game developed.Have nono of you actually read any of the books that you so lovingly quote? Do you NOT understand all of the advanced math that is so easy to quote from a computer program? The level of knowledge about poker theory and concepts here is huge, but like so many children, its no more than a pattern of memorized Cliff Notes. And we wonder why this nations slides further into the abyss. Look at our future.If you really believe the poker analogies and theories you spew out so vehemntly, understand that your game play shouldn't really change, even if you could see your opponents cards, nor will the outcome. There will still be one outers that catch, and you will lose coinflips, regardless the fact that you can see cards. The only thing it will do for you "poker afficianados" is make you more upset when you lose, and make your game play that much weaker.Cheating is stealing. If you were victim to this scheme, your tune would change. Attitudes tlike the majority displayed here are disappointing, to say the least. At a time when poker can be brought to the forefront of legitimacy, it is sad that the reputation that tarnished the game is so alive and well among today's youth.DN: I liked your blog and the subsequent ripping of the WSOP for vanquishing so many games. Hold 'em is my least favorite form of poker (but my highest yeild ROI!!). I have been longing for a low limit mixed game OL since I started playing.

Yeah if I was a victim of this scheme I would be outraged. But not at the guy with the magic program. At the poker site for allowing it to happen. I guess I just dont expect people to turn down free money.That being said this program is wrong and stealing. But there are other times where I would pocket money that isnt mine. Money found on the street, bank error, poker cashout check sent to me by accident, etc.I like being a good person. but I am not a saint either....if money just happens to find me I dont say no.

[CaneBrain 95]

I'll tell you this right now people, i wouldnt use a program to cheat people out of money,But i would buy a lottery ticket if i knew what the numbers are going to be.Is there anyone here, (OP) who turns down 11.5 million?

yes i turn down 11.5 million. it is not a matter of how much or how. it is all stealing!! whatever the price i still say no.

no it is not stealing. you dont have a magic program that cheats other poker players. You just happen to know the numbers through no fault of your own.I am sorry tabletop but not all of these situations are the same.I agree using a poker program like the one you hypothetically describe is stealing and wrong. but lots of these other situations people describe are not stealing. they are just a person getting lucky. no shame in that.

[Royal_Tour 0]

Again, I'm am elated at the way people offer up such insight into their character and their true level of understanding the game.Why is it that so many people in this community are so quick to point out how little the cards matter, how you have to play the man, not the cards, etc. would also be the first to jump on the chance to have the opportunity to see your opponents cards as the game developed.Have nono of you actually read any of the books that you so lovingly quote? Do you NOT understand all of the advanced math that is so easy to quote from a computer program? The level of knowledge about poker theory and concepts here is huge, but like so many children, its no more than a pattern of memorized Cliff Notes. And we wonder why this nations slides further into the abyss. Look at our future.If you really believe the poker analogies and theories you spew out so vehemntly, understand that your game play shouldn't really change, even if you could see your opponents cards, nor will the outcome. There will still be one outers that catch, and you will lose coinflips, regardless the fact that you can see cards. The only thing it will do for you "poker afficianados" is make you more upset when you lose, and make your game play that much weaker.Cheating is stealing. If you were victim to this scheme, your tune would change. Attitudes tlike the majority displayed here are disappointing, to say the least. At a time when poker can be brought to the forefront of legitimacy, it is sad that the reputation that tarnished the game is so alive and well among today's youth.DN: I liked your blog and the subsequent ripping of the WSOP for vanquishing so many games. Hold 'em is my least favorite form of poker (but my highest yeild ROI!!). I have been longing for a low limit mixed game OL since I started playing.

I was waiting for someone to bring this up. Very good post. .

I have to dissagree with post these posts.Mathematics and text book play becomes obscolete when you can see opponents cards.You wil not win everyhand, but you will fold pocket kings, to aces.Or your middle set to his top set.I'm sorry but like card counting in black jack, these are mathematical systems set up to give and edge. If you knew the dealer had 18 and you had 14, well you need to hit.u might bust, but you know you are already beat, even if you counted the cards and have figured out there is +3 more high cards in the remaining deck.

[agsa6079 0]

Those of you who say "anyone who doesn't take the money is a liar" have no concept of morality. I'll give you real world examples. Over the course of my career, I have risen to about as high as I can go. I make about 80 grand a year and I love my job. I wouldn't trade it for the world, and I wouldn't trade it for the $150,ooo a year job I was offered 2 weeks ago, nor would I trade out the morals and ethics of my job for the $440,000 bribe I was offered in May.The point is some people won't do things that go against the nature of their character, no matter what the reward may be. This thread has been very revealing into the character of the people who frequent this community. Most of you are childish, immature and detrimental to the game of poker. Within 5 years, most of you will be bankrupt, living hand to mouth and trying to figure out where your 20's went and how you ended up owing so much money. Don't get me wrong, some of you will be the victims of circumstance and get lucky. Maybe place high in the $ in a big tourney, ot hit a jackpot somewhere. But in the long run, which is what this games is all about, you'll end up a deadbeat or dead. But you'll definitely be beat.Go Pirates.

[CaneBrain 95]

Again, I'm am elated at the way people offer up such insight into their character and their true level of understanding the game.Why is it that so many people in this community are so quick to point out how little the cards matter, how you have to play the man, not the cards, etc. would also be the first to jump on the chance to have the opportunity to see your opponents cards as the game developed.Have nono of you actually read any of the books that you so lovingly quote? Do you NOT understand all of the advanced math that is so easy to quote from a computer program? The level of knowledge about poker theory and concepts here is huge, but like so many children, its no more than a pattern of memorized Cliff Notes. And we wonder why this nations slides further into the abyss. Look at our future.If you really believe the poker analogies and theories you spew out so vehemntly, understand that your game play shouldn't really change, even if you could see your opponents cards, nor will the outcome. There will still be one outers that catch, and you will lose coinflips, regardless the fact that you can see cards. The only thing it will do for you "poker afficianados" is make you more upset when you lose, and make your game play that much weaker.Cheating is stealing. If you were victim to this scheme, your tune would change. Attitudes tlike the majority displayed here are disappointing, to say the least. At a time when poker can be brought to the forefront of legitimacy, it is sad that the reputation that tarnished the game is so alive and well among today's youth.DN: I liked your blog and the subsequent ripping of the WSOP for vanquishing so many games. Hold 'em is my least favorite form of poker (but my highest yeild ROI!!). I have been longing for a low limit mixed game OL since I started playing.

I was waiting for someone to bring this up. Very good post. .

I have to dissagree with post these posts.Mathematics and text book play becomes obscolete when you can see opponents cards.You wil not win everyhand, but you will fold pocket kings, to aces.Or your middle set to his top set.I'm sorry but like card counting in black jack, these are mathematical systems set up to give and edge. If you knew the dealer had 18 and you had 14, well you need to hit.u might bust, but you know you are already beat, even if you counted the cards and have figured out there is +3 more high cards in the remaining deck.

yeah Agsa, I agree with Royal here. Sure, your play style should stay similar. But if you make a pot sized bet on the turn and the guy calls and hits his miracle card on the river you will know to lay it down.your post was complete nonsense. basically you are saying it is not an advantage to be able to see everyone else's hole cards. which is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard.

[Garn 0]

In poker you always look for an extra edge. That looks like a pretty big edge to me!

[DK 0]

Those of you who say "anyone who doesn't take the money is a liar" have no concept of morality. I'll give you real world examples. Over the course of my career, I have risen to about as high as I can go. I make about 80 grand a year and I love my job. I wouldn't trade it for the world, and I wouldn't trade it for the $150,ooo a year job I was offered 2 weeks ago, nor would I trade out the morals and ethics of my job for the $440,000 bribe I was offered in May.The point is some people won't do things that go against the nature of their character, no matter what the reward may be. This thread has been very revealing into the character of the people who frequent this community. Most of you are childish, immature and detrimental to the game of poker. Within 5 years, most of you will be bankrupt, living hand to mouth and trying to figure out where your 20's went and how you ended up owing so much money. Don't get me wrong, some of you will be the victims of circumstance and get lucky. Maybe place high in the $ in a big tourney, ot hit a jackpot somewhere. But in the long run, which is what this games is all about, you'll end up a deadbeat or dead. But you'll definitely be beat.Go Pirates.

$440,000 seems like a pretty high bribe.. mind sharing with us what you do? cop, lawyer, or politition?

[CaneBrain 95]

Those of you who say "anyone who doesn't take the money is a liar" have no concept of morality. I'll give you real world examples. Over the course of my career, I have risen to about as high as I can go. I make about 80 grand a year and I love my job. I wouldn't trade it for the world, and I wouldn't trade it for the $150,ooo a year job I was offered 2 weeks ago, nor would I trade out the morals and ethics of my job for the $440,000 bribe I was offered in May.The point is some people won't do things that go against the nature of their character, no matter what the reward may be. This thread has been very revealing into the character of the people who frequent this community. Most of you are childish, immature and detrimental to the game of poker. Within 5 years, most of you will be bankrupt, living hand to mouth and trying to figure out where your 20's went and how you ended up owing so much money. Don't get me wrong, some of you will be the victims of circumstance and get lucky. Maybe place high in the $ in a big tourney, ot hit a jackpot somewhere. But in the long run, which is what this games is all about, you'll end up a deadbeat or dead. But you'll definitely be beat.Go Pirates.

Thats fine. ANd I applaud your morals. But your post that said that seeing other peoples cards would not be an advantage was hilariously false.

[blueodum 0]

But he can honestly say that his own self-respect and sense of integrity is more important to him than money. Which is a good thing, last time I checked. Unless you're a hooker, politician, lawyer, or a drug dealer, where it's a career limitation. FYP

[agsa6079 0]

RoyalTour,I get lost with so many quotes, so I won't quote a quote of a quote, you know what I mean?Counting cards in blackjack is cheating. You know that, right? Also, you're talking about less than a 1% advantage in the odds by doing so.So, I guess when you move all in with KK and someone calls with AA, you've made a mistke how? It's the correct move to push with KK, mathematically speaking. The edge in poker is not in knowing what your opponent has, it's knowing how to play the game properly. Pushing with hands that are 80% or over is ALWAYS correct. The choice is yours to develop the skill to determine if your KK is against AA in the right time.the argumanets can be made for both sides of the coin. But if you really think that the described scenarios of cheating are ok, then more power to you. I'll refer you to my previous post on the subject of morality.

[Royal_Tour 0]

Those of you who say "anyone who doesn't take the money is a liar" have no concept of morality. I'll give you real world examples. Over the course of my career, I have risen to about as high as I can go. I make about 80 grand a year and I love my job. I wouldn't trade it for the world, and I wouldn't trade it for the $150,ooo a year job I was offered 2 weeks ago, nor would I trade out the morals and ethics of my job for the $440,000 bribe I was offered in May.The point is some people won't do things that go against the nature of their character, no matter what the reward may be. This thread has been very revealing into the character of the people who frequent this community. Most of you are childish, immature and detrimental to the game of poker. Within 5 years, most of you will be bankrupt, living hand to mouth and trying to figure out where your 20's went and how you ended up owing so much money. Don't get me wrong, some of you will be the victims of circumstance and get lucky. Maybe place high in the $ in a big tourney, ot hit a jackpot somewhere. But in the long run, which is what this games is all about, you'll end up a deadbeat or dead. But you'll definitely be beat.Go Pirates.

Thats fine. ANd I applaud your morals. But your post that said that seeing other peoples cards would not be an advantage was hilariously false.

Although i do not agree with the use of "hilariously". lol, i do think your two posts are apples and oranges.I wouldnt take a bribe if it meant hurting others, something which is morally wrong.I wouldnt cheat others out of money, but like myself and Cane strongly believe, If by chance you know the numbers to a lottery, accidental, or even forcefully whispered in your ear by a employee you would still not go out and buy the ticket?This is like getting good cards all day. If you hit 17 boats out of 20 hands, do you start to laythem down ? no of course not, you are getting lucky.You didnt ask for the boats, but they are hitting, and you didnt ask for the lotto numbers, but you were told them.do you see

[Royal_Tour 0]

RoyalTour,I get lost with so many quotes, so I won't quote a quote of a quote, you know what I mean?Counting cards in blackjack is cheating. You know that, right? Also, you're talking about less than a 1% advantage in the odds by doing so.So, I guess when you move all in with KK and someone calls with AA, you've made a mistke how? It's the correct move to push with KK, mathematically speaking. The edge in poker is not in knowing what your opponent has, it's knowing how to play the game properly. Pushing with hands that are 80% or over is ALWAYS correct. The choice is yours to develop the skill to determine if your KK is against AA in the right time.the argumanets can be made for both sides of the coin. But if you really think that the described scenarios of cheating are ok, then more power to you. I'll refer you to my previous post on the subject of morality.

By law in Canada counting cards is not illegal. Maybe the casino considers it cheating. But what you are doing is memorizing previous cards.Not wrongYou are seriously confused.listen, when you see your opponent holds AA, ,you wont even limp into the pot anymore.do you see why?

[TS Clark 0]

yes you are still being stupid. its their fault that they lost it anyway, not yours, you had nothing to do with it so just take it. you said it yourself, even they look at you like you are crazy, becuase you are.

The poster is not being stupid here (though you ARE being insulting). They are probably not really returning the $2 item for fear that it will cause the store owner(s) problems. They are returning it because they would not feel honest about keeping something they didn't pay for. It's about them and their internal feelings more than anything -- and thus is not ridiculous, stupid, or any other insulting word you want to attach.You need to seriously look up the word "integrity" in the dictionary. I don't think everyone would feel the same way about the $2 item and I wouldn't think badly of someone who didn't return to the store if they felt such an action was out of proportion to their feelings. But I do think anyone who would ridicule another person for trying to what they felt was right is a person everyone else would be wise to avoid.

[Konidias 0]

I can't really say what I'd do given the situation... but I know that I really don't see the harm in using it to maybe... win one large multi-table tourney and then quit. You're taking a hundred or less off of x amount of people, one time. Once. They are not going to go broke or have their lives ruined by losing 50-100 dollars.I can see Daniel's point of view though... if you used this program in the highest limit tables I could see how it would seem terrible.I think most people are driven to cheat because we are cheated so much on a daily basis. Corporations cheat you out of money every single day. That drink you paid a buck fifty for at that fast food chain? It actually costs pennies.Why do movie stars and athletes get paid millions of dollars simply to entertain people? If I was a movie star I'd feel like I was robbing people of money by taking millions of dollars just for spending half a year playing make believe.Everything you buy in stores is overpriced. You're not even paying for the cost of labor since so many things are either made by machines, or made by poor children in foreign countries for next to no salary.edit: Not to mention taxes. You get taxed on damn near everything and you really don't even have a say in how that tax money is spent. It's spent buying golden toilet seats and leather chairs and god knows what else.

[agsa6079 0]

I never said that seeing your opponents cards wasn't an advantage. Learn to read before you start calling people stupid.I said that cheating in cards was stupid and wrong. I also said that it is evident that those people who are so good at making verbatim quotes from SS have no idea what they are talking about, because Doyle and Mike Caro both clearly state, in summary, that your game play should be dicatated by making the right decisons, reagardless the overall oucome of the hand. You will not make the right decisions, as related to poker, if you could see that your opponent hit his one outer on the river and fold everytime. In fact, in SS, there is a line that says you should play your hand the correct way, all the time, even if you could see you opponents cards.If this concept is confusing to any of you, let me be the first to dispense the favorite line her:Quit playing poker, you have no idea what you are doing.

[Royal_Tour 0]

I can't really say what I'd do given the situation... but I know that I really don't see the harm in using it to maybe... win one large multi-table tourney and then quit. You're taking a hundred or less off of x amount of people, one time. Once. They are not going to go broke or have their lives ruined by losing 50-100 dollars.I can see Daniel's point of view though... if you used this program in the highest limit tables I could see how it would seem terrible.I think most people are driven to cheat because we are cheated so much on a daily basis. Corporations cheat you out of money every single day. That drink you paid a buck fifty for at that fast food chain? It actually costs pennies.Why do movie stars and athletes get paid millions of dollars simply to entertain people? If I was a movie star I'd feel like I was robbing people of money by taking millions of dollars just for spending half a year playing make believe.Everything you buy in stores is overpriced. You're not even paying for the cost of labor since so many things are either made by machines, or made by poor children in foreign countries for next to no salary.

here s the thing.No one is forced to buy the drink for 1.50 no one is forced to watch the movies.Now, if yu go into the theatre to watch a movie, and its nothing but a blank screen for 90 minutes, that would be cheating people out of money.If the soda is empty, that would be cheatingpeople out of money.The world works with "what can i do's".. Laws, and morals help keep us inline, but its human nature to try to stretch the "what can i do's" questions to their limits.how much can i charge for this? or how much can i get out of this guy with my nut flush?.. etc....

[Matt Over Aces 0]

Again, I'm am elated at the way people offer up such insight into their character and their true level of understanding the game.Why is it that so many people in this community are so quick to point out how little the cards matter, how you have to play the man, not the cards, etc. would also be the first to jump on the chance to have the opportunity to see your opponents cards as the game developed.Have nono of you actually read any of the books that you so lovingly quote? Do you NOT understand all of the advanced math that is so easy to quote from a computer program? The level of knowledge about poker theory and concepts here is huge, but like so many children, its no more than a pattern of memorized Cliff Notes. And we wonder why this nations slides further into the abyss. Look at our future.If you really believe the poker analogies and theories you spew out so vehemntly, understand that your game play shouldn't really change, even if you could see your opponents cards, nor will the outcome. There will still be one outers that catch, and you will lose coinflips, regardless the fact that you can see cards. The only thing it will do for you "poker afficianados" is make you more upset when you lose, and make your game play that much weaker.Cheating is stealing. If you were victim to this scheme, your tune would change. Attitudes tlike the majority displayed here are disappointing, to say the least. At a time when poker can be brought to the forefront of legitimacy, it is sad that the reputation that tarnished the game is so alive and well among today's youth.DN: I liked your blog and the subsequent ripping of the WSOP for vanquishing so many games. Hold 'em is my least favorite form of poker (but my highest yeild ROI!!). I have been longing for a low limit mixed game OL since I started playing.

I was waiting for someone to bring this up. Very good post. .

I have to dissagree with post these posts.Mathematics and text book play becomes obscolete when you can see opponents cards.You wil not win everyhand, but you will fold pocket kings, to aces.Or your middle set to his top set.I'm sorry but like card counting in black jack, these are mathematical systems set up to give and edge. If you knew the dealer had 18 and you had 14, well you need to hit.u might bust, but you know you are already beat, even if you counted the cards and have figured out there is +3 more high cards in the remaining deck.

yeah Agsa, I agree with Royal here. Sure, your play style should stay similar. But if you make a pot sized bet on the turn and the guy calls and hits his miracle card on the river you will know to lay it down.your post was complete nonsense. basically you are saying it is not an advantage to be able to see everyone else's hole cards. which is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard.

The idea that the cards shouldn't matter is conceptually correct. But, the fact is that everytime someone raises with garbage, you KNOW they're holding garbage and can act accordingly. You KNOW when the unsuspecting off suit 6 on the turn filled their gutshot draw and you're now drawing dead with your overpair. As good a poker player as anyone is, they are still going to make mistakes, LOTS of mistakes over the course of a week, a month, a year. By knowing your opponent's exact hole cards, you won't have to worry about making mistakes anymore. You will be unbluffable. You will never have to truly make a "big laydown" that may not be correct, because you'll know exactly where you stand when you make it. If you have any poker knowledge then you would be essentially unbeatable, even against the players in the "Big Game." Their best poker faces and strong acting jobs couldn't save them from the fact that you could see right through the back of their cards.

[TS Clark 0]

I can't really say what I'd do given the situation... but I know that I really don't see the harm in using it to maybe... win one large multi-table tourney and then quit. You're taking a hundred or less off of x amount of people, one time. Once. They are not going to go broke or have their lives ruined by losing 50-100 dollars.I can see Daniel's point of view though... if you used this program in the highest limit tables I could see how it would seem terrible.I think most people are driven to cheat because we are cheated so much on a daily basis. Corporations cheat you out of money every single day. That drink you paid a buck fifty for at that fast food chain? It actually costs pennies.Why do movie stars and athletes get paid millions of dollars simply to entertain people? If I was a movie star I'd feel like I was robbing people of money by taking millions of dollars just for spending half a year playing make believe.Everything you buy in stores is overpriced. You're not even paying for the cost of labor since so many things are either made by machines, or made by poor children in foreign countries for next to no salary.edit: Not to mention taxes. You get taxed on damn near everything and you really don't even have a say in how that tax money is spent. It's spent buying golden toilet seats and leather chairs and god knows what else.

None of the things you mention above are cheating. At all. Except for the part where you mention cheating in a big MTT just once. That is cheating. And your attempted justification of it is lame, not to mention illogical in the extreme.The other things may be things you don't like or are offended by, but they are transactions that people enter into willingly (or as part of a a societal contract for things like taxes).Corporations don't cheat anyone when they mark things up. They cheat people when they falsify information or rob employee pension funds. But, unless you are a WTO protester or Berkeley student, making a profit isn't wrong the last time I checked. You don't want to pay for marked-up goods and services? Time to learn to weave and start a garden, I guess.

[Royal_Tour 0]

I never said that seeing your opponents cards wasn't an advantage. Learn to read before you start calling people stupid.I said that cheating in cards was stupid and wrong. I also said that it is evident that those people who are so good at making verbatim quotes from SS have no idea what they are talking about, because Doyle and Mike Caro both clearly state, in summary, that your game play should be dicatated by making the right decisons, reagardless the overall oucome of the hand. You will not make the right decisions, as related to poker, if you could see that your opponent hit his one outer on the river and fold everytime. In fact, in SS, there is a line that says you should play your hand the correct way, all the time, even if you could see you opponents cards.If this concept is confusing to any of you, let me be the first to dispense the favorite line her:Quit playing poker, you have no idea what you are doing.

No one called you stupid, we simply questioned your post.what you are saying about doyle and caro is true, however, the statement, "even if you can see your opponents cards" is simply that. a Statement, which is used to help get the idea into the readers head.They want to carve in the idea that you shouldnt get discouraged, because your KK lost to AA, calling with KK is the correct move.But this is simply a system resulted from math.If you can actually see the opponents cards, you will not play your hand mathematically.Its comon sense, Mike Caro would even agree that folding KK when you see ur opponent raised with AA is +EV.Now You're telling me to quit poker because i have no idea what i'm doing, But if you are seriouse about calling with KK when u see he has AA, well i dont even know how to finish this sentence its so ridiculous

[Matt Over Aces 0]

I wouldnt cheat others out of money, but like myself and Cane strongly believe, If by chance you know the numbers to a lottery, accidental, or even forcefully whispered in your ear by a employee you would still not go out and buy the ticket?This is like getting good cards all day. If you hit 17 boats out of 20 hands, do you start to laythem down ? no of course not, you are getting lucky.You didnt ask for the boats, but they are hitting, and you didnt ask for the lotto numbers, but you were told them.do you see

I think that you have to ask the question with the lottery...WHO IS BEING HURT?I think that is one of people's biggest objections to cheating or stealing anything, is how it unfairly and negatively impacts another individual or individuals.If I knew the numbers to the lottery, YES I would play them. Why? I guess the main thing is that people who play the lottery plunk down 1 or 5 or 10 dollars and are hoping against hope (and overwhelming odds) to get lucky and strike it rich. If they don't win, then they have the expected result and they move on with their lives, and play again next week. Also, just becuase you know the numbers to the lottery, doesn't mean that nobody else can win too. So, you are really not hurting anyone here and that's the reason that I would be ok with this.

[blueodum 0]

Knowing your opponent's holecards means you can play perfect poker (as stated in the FTOP (Sklansky)). The best player in the world can't play perfect poker.Using this hypothetical program to see hole cards is blatant cheating. Just as much as if you walked over to your opponent in a live game during a hand and forced him to turn over his cards at gun point.

[JFinn08 0]

Nice and simple.Why cheat if you can beat the game?Half of you saying that you would cheat say you can beat this game.You can throw the whole fend for family excuse out the window because youre already making money beating the game fair right?So lets be honest with ourselves. You cheaters out there.....youre doing it because your greedy, slefish, money hungry assholes right?

[Matt Over Aces 0]

Knowing your opponent's holecards means you can play perfect poker (as stated in the FTOP (Sklansky)). The best player in the world can't play perfect poker.Using this hypothetical program to see hole cards is blatant cheating. Just as much as if you walked over to your opponent in a live game during a hand and forced him to turn over his cards at gun point.

God, that would make for some interesting poker, wouldn't it?Good point about people's inability to actualize the FTOP without seeing the hole cards.

[TS Clark 0]

As good a poker player as anyone is, they are still going to make mistakes, LOTS of mistakes over the course of a week, a month, a year. By knowing your opponent's exact hole cards, you won't have to worry about making mistakes anymore. You will be unbluffable. You will never have to truly make a "big laydown" that may not be correct, because you'll know exactly where you stand when you make it. If you have any poker knowledge then you would be essentially unbeatable, even against the players in the "Big Game." Their best poker faces and strong acting jobs couldn't save them from the fact that you could see right through the back of their cards.

This is an excellent point. Sklansky talked in TOP about the fundamental concept of poker boiling down to your making money when you make a decision that is the same as if you could see your opponent's holding (because, in a perfect world, you would then always make the correct, +EV play).All the skill and "people skills" in the world would make no difference playing against one relatively smart, disciplined person who knew your cards. They would never violate the fundamental theory of poker and, thus, in the long run, crush any game they played. I could teach my 11 year old daughter in a month or two to hand Doyle Brunson his ass if she had this ability.Which would be good, because up to this point she's not pulling her weight, financially speaking... :-)

[RayPowers 0]

Just to clarify this , I have no idea who tritz is and never saw any post if his that was on the same subject. Oh and do I need to be an english major to post? ? ? ? ? ?

No, but it goes a long way towards me treating you seriously. *shrug*Its like the resume spelled in l33tsp34k! I'm going to think its good for a laugh, but I'm not going to give it serious consideration. if I see a post that looks thrown together, I have much the same feeling towards it.It may seem like a dig at you, but it's not. Its just my "corporate thinking" I guess that requires a level of professionalism before I begin to think that someone is actually serious about something, and its amplified, when its a medium (like General on a random internet chat board) that I have a hard time taking seriously to begin with. (Think a pefectly typed resume... on Play Doh.)Ray