would you cheat????

[jlgosse 0]

I bet no one has ever offered him software to cheat playing online poker when he was broke, though.Didn't think so.Morality and ethics play less of a part in this situation, especially when you may be desperate.

[jayboogie 0]

I bet no one has ever offered him software to cheat playing online poker when he was broke, though.Didn't think so.Morality and ethics play less of a part in this situation, especially when you may be desperate.

Obviously nobody has ever offered him software to cheat, because there's no such thing. Has anyone ever asked him to cheat and collude? I'm pretty positive it's happened at some point in his poker career.The whole point here is that your sacrificing your integrity to make a quick buck. Does it make it right to cheat because your in a desperate situation? Of course not, using I'm desperate and broke is just a cop out and justification to yourself for cheating.

[Wingmaster05 0]

Bunch of hoodlums!  If an old lady fell on the street and had a million in her purse, would you help her up and then rob her too?      Seriously, how do y'all sleep at night?  Doing this is flat out theft.  Doing this makes you a two-bit criminal.

you're just saying that because you don't have to worry about money as much as we dobtw, I voted NO!!! the hell with all the cheaters.

Dude, I've been broke as dirt and never considered cheating or stealing from others. It is a little shocking that the majority of the people who answered the poll have no problem being scummy.

it's not that we have no problem being scummy....it's just...i don't know how to explain it. i know i wouldn't be able to resist it, and no matter how shitty i felt the next day, at least i'd know i provided for my family financially in the fullest way possible

I think that's the difference between people of faith and others. You are doing things for yourself, so you can almost justify stealing. Provide for your family in the fullest way possible? How about love them with your heart, in the fullest way possible? I wouldn't care one bit if my father worked as a garbage man or what he does today. Money should not be your driving factor in life...Oh, and by "providing for your family", it sounds as though you are hurting countless other families as well, all so your son or daughter can have name brand clothing and a car at their 16th birthday? You don't have to believe in God to follow the Golden rule. I know everyone believes the Golden rule is right, so follow it!

[jayboogie 0]

Bunch of hoodlums!  If an old lady fell on the street and had a million in her purse, would you help her up and then rob her too?      Seriously, how do y'all sleep at night?  Doing this is flat out theft.  Doing this makes you a two-bit criminal.

you're just saying that because you don't have to worry about money as much as we dobtw, I voted NO!!! the hell with all the cheaters.

Dude, I've been broke as dirt and never considered cheating or stealing from others. It is a little shocking that the majority of the people who answered the poll have no problem being scummy.

it's not that we have no problem being scummy....it's just...i don't know how to explain it. i know i wouldn't be able to resist it, and no matter how shitty i felt the next day, at least i'd know i provided for my family financially in the fullest way possible

I think that's the difference between people of faith and others. You are doing things for yourself, so you can almost justify stealing. Provide for your family in the fullest way possible? How about love them with your heart, in the fullest way possible? I wouldn't care one bit if my father worked as a garbage man or what he does today. Money should not be your driving factor in life...Oh, and by "providing for your family", it sounds as though you are hurting countless other families as well, all so your son or daughter can have name brand clothing and a car at their 16th birthday? You don't have to believe in God to follow the Golden rule. I know everyone believes the Golden rule is right, so follow it!

good post

[Wingmaster05 0]

pupsta:YSALKY.seriously.  cheaters make me puke

so i'm the one you target with that comment, although it's 2:1 in favor of "yes" right now? i'm assuming that that # will change with DN's latest post, because now people will assume DN will hate them for admitting that they'd cheat if they had the chance.

havent agreeed with you much pupsta, but i think you hit the nail in the head with this one... Don Giovanni wrote

this question isnt hypothetical, tritz has such a program. ahahahahaha  but seriously, i voted yes when i first saw this topic just thinking about how fun it would be to pwn noobs knowing their cards. but now i realize it is flat out stealing and would be wrong.  and i do not think people should go to jail for voting yes, haha.

[jarvis5150 0]

I think the boot camp idea just hit a road block.

[Wingmaster05 0]

I think the boot camp idea just hit a road block.

I'm lost...

[fish43 0]

...If you where given a software program that displayed other players cards at your table...

There was a group that broke the shuffler algorithm for an online site and was able to do something like what you are suggesting. http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/entdev/ar...icle.php/616221Instead of cheating they generated press for thier security business by going public. It's due to them that some online poker sites have really good shuffler algorithms.UB Shuffler:http://www.ultimatebet.com/about-ub/rng.htmlPokerstars Shuffler:http://www.pokerstars.com/security.htmlif the site has a securiy breach this large, how could you trust anything else about the site, such as "cash out"Regardless of the basic moral question of stealing, I think access to this sort of cheating software would indicate a -EV situation. Cheaters be warned.

[lifelessimp 0]

:? If I really needed the money, I think I could justify doing this to myself. I probably wouldn't even feel bad about it. But then, I'm an immoral scumbag when it comes to money. Especially when I couldn't see the players I was taking money off of...Makes me wonder what people would do if you had a pair of sunglasses that could see people's hole cards? (I actually think there is a way to do this, if you have a video camera and a computer built in to them that keep track of all shown cards as they are shuffled...)I voted yes, but I dunno... I mean, when I first started out (on play money tables only though) I used to collude w/ my friend. Back then, though, I didn't think it was wrong... I guess cheating is cheating... but I think I might be a cheat :? .

[Amadeus 0]

This thread actually makes me a little sick.  If you vote yes, you should go to jail, for a very long time.  I love poker and it genuinely saddens me that the newer generation is so comfortable cheating the game, themselves, and flat out robbing other people.    Where do you cheaters draw the line exactly?  If you could rob one of your friends for money without getting caught would you do that to?  Remind me not to invite you guys over to my place... my goodness, you guys need a beat down!

Glad you said this. I was about to respond with something similiar until I read your post. The saddest part is that most people think cheating is okay if they don't get caught. What they fail to realize is how their actions could be effecting other peoples lives in very negative ways.

[Wingmaster05 0]

...If you where given a software program that displayed other players cards at your table...

There was a group that broke the shuffler algorithm for an online site and was able to do something like what you are suggesting. http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/entdev/ar...icle.php/616221Instead of cheating they generated press for thier security business by going public. It's due to them that some online poker sites have really good shuffler algorithms.UB Shuffler:http://www.ultimatebet.com/about-ub/rng.htmlPokerstars Shuffler:http://www.pokerstars.com/security.htmlif the site has a securiy breach this large, how could you trust anything else about the site, such as "cash out"Regardless of the basic moral question of stealing, I think access to this sort of cheating software would indicate a -EV situation. Cheaters be warned.

we need to thank these guys or else we probably wouldn't be playing poker online. And i love poker online. LOVE IT, DAMNIT!!

[blinky 0]

let me play devils advocate here: if a guy whos punch drunk sits down at your 20-40 table and starts throwing chips around like theyre nothing calling down with 6 high etc., would you get up and tell yourself you refuse to take money from an incapacitated person.why is that not different from using a program that tells you your opponents' cards? in both cases you are taking advantage of the weak, and using whatever you could to take their money disregarding their feelings. How do you know that in the drunks case he doesnt wake up the next morning with empty pockets and have to come home to his wife and kids and he blew all the food money at the tables. by willingly playing with teh drunk arent you preying on the weak in the same way a cheating program would?

[jayboogie 0]

let me play devils advocate here: if a guy whos punch drunk sits down at your 20-40  table and starts throwing chips around like theyre nothing calling down with 6 high etc., would you get up and tell yourself you refuse to take money from an incapacitated person.why is that not different from using a program that tells you your opponents' cards?  in both cases you are taking advantage of the weak, and using whatever you could to take their money disregarding their feelings.  How do you know that in the drunks case he doesnt wake up the next morning with empty pockets and have to come home to his wife and kids and he blew all the food money at the tables.  by willingly playing with teh drunk arent you preying on the weak in the same way a cheating program would?

These are 2 totallly different situations considering 1 is cheating and not allowed and the other is perfectly fine. The drunk knowingly sits down at the table and donks off his chips, if he sits at a poker table, he's liable to lose what he buys in with, that's accepted fact. If you don't take his money, your playing the wrong game, beating up on weak players is what your supposed to do in poker. If you don't take his money, somebody else will.The difference is that you take his money fairly whereas if your cheating, the other players are being unfairly cheated out of their money. You can try to justify it however you want, but cheating is cheating. If there wasn't anything wrong with it, people wouldn't be coming up with reasons to justify doing it.

[acesfullmike 0]

jeez, tough subject. I can honestly say that there was a time when i would have seriously considered it. integrity, honesty, and reputation be damned, I was starving in grad school and was nearly evicted several times. thankfully, i never did anything that i regret too much (there was an incident with a fat girl and me needing a paper written) I play now for spending cash and a good time. i mean unless you are really terrible you can 5-6 table the 2/4 and make over $30/ hour. while that is chump change to a whole lot of people, it has helped me out when hours were hard to come by at work. If i have to quit my current job to go back to school again (i really want another degree, i may be addicted), i will pay for it with partypoker reward points, lol. there is a dollar amount for almost every individual where they would consider it. some of you would cheat for 100 bucks, some 1000, and nearly all for a few million.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

This thread actually makes me a little sick. If you vote yes, you should go to jail, for a very long time. I love poker and it genuinely saddens me that the newer generation is so comfortable cheating the game, themselves, and flat out robbing other people. Where do you cheaters draw the line exactly? If you could rob one of your friends for money without getting caught would you do that to? Remind me not to invite you guys over to my place... my goodness, you guys need a beat down!

The new generation? Um.... I'm sorry, but the poker cheating trail was blazed far before this generation, by guys like Titanic Thompson and Johnny Moss, and before, to the river boat, old west days. Cheating has been going on in poker since it's inceptiong, it's poker's dirty little secret that people ignore like it never exsisted. As long as there's money in it, people will cheat. People should start realizing that, and start protecting themselves from the cheats.

[Spademan 94]

Point is moot for me really.I'm so much better than the rest when I sit down, it's pretty much cheating anyway.For the record, I voted yes after reading the read, solely because so many people are disturbed by the number of yes votes.I can't help being an ass like that.

[jtabletop 0]

let me play devils advocate here: if a guy whos punch drunk sits down at your 20-40 table and starts throwing chips around like theyre nothing calling down with 6 high etc., would you get up and tell yourself you refuse to take money from an incapacitated person.why is that not different from using a program that tells you your opponents' cards? in both cases you are taking advantage of the weak, and using whatever you could to take their money disregarding their feelings. How do you know that in the drunks case he doesnt wake up the next morning with empty pockets and have to come home to his wife and kids and he blew all the food money at the tables. by willingly playing with teh drunk arent you preying on the weak in the same way a cheating program would?

you can't be ****ing serious!!!!!!!!!!!!

[RayPowers 0]

Dude, I've been broke as dirt and never considered cheating or stealing from others. It is a little shocking that the majority of the people who answered the poll have no problem being scummy.

It has nothing to do with being scummy. It has to do with voting yes on something that is never going to happen that would potentially make us tons of money. I would vote Yes on 'Would you be in the Oceans 11 gang' as well, who were obviously crooks, but they were cool and it is fun to imagine yourself as one of them. If the program were placed in my hands, and I hit a table, would I really go through with it? Who knows? Unlikely, but maybe. Maybe being online and not seeing the other people is just detatched enough to make it feel like a victimless crime. Maybe not. Probably not in my mind.But when someone puts it up as an internet poll and my mind gets racing about the fun of trying something like this out, and since its obviously not really going to happen I don't have to think about the negative side of it, I'll vote Yes all the time. I think you're looking too deeply into it Daniel. I think many of us voted yes in the same vein we think about winning the lottery. Its never going to happen, so it doesn't matter what our answer is and we're going to dream about using it to make millions.Saying something like we should go to jail, or we're being scummy, are pretty harsh words in response to a harmless poll. Its being the thought police, which Americans have enough problems with right now. You should be judging people by their actions, not by how they answer a nonsensical poll. I give $100 a paycheck to Phoenix Children's Hospital. I donate to several charities every month. I help out at St. Mary's Food Bank a couple times a year. I always buy a friend in need a beer or a snack. I donated over $1000 in toys last X-Mas. I *AM* that guy who will help an old lady put her groceries in the trunk, or walk across the street.And I voted yes on that poll. Because its just a silly internet poll.Should I go to jail? Honestly?Ray

[rog 0]

I would not cheat. For those of you who say if you play for money, you have to cheat when the opportunity arises, I say that's a severly flawed argument. I go to my day job "just for money" day in and day out. Every day when I leave, there are hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of unlocked computer equipment laying around the office. It would be all too easy to take a laptop now and then, and hawk it. Do I despise money because I dont? Do you steal from your employer everytime the opportunity to do so without getting caught arises? Just because someone does something solely for money doesn't mean greed has to trump integrity. Anyone who would cheat is quite frankly a horrible human being. I have made good and bad choices in my life. I have been a horrible human being at times too. I try to aim a little higher for the most part though.

[Wingmaster05 0]

Dude, I've been broke as dirt and never considered cheating or stealing from others. It is a little shocking that the majority of the people who answered the poll have no problem being scummy.

It has nothing to do with being scummy. It has to do with voting yes on something that is never going to happen that would potentially make us tons of money. I would vote Yes on 'Would you be in the Oceans 11 gang' as well, who were obviously crooks, but they were cool and it is fun to imagine yourself as one of them. If the program were placed in my hands, and I hit a table, would I really go through with it? Who knows? Unlikely, but maybe. Maybe being online and not seeing the other people is just detatched enough to make it feel like a victimless crime. Maybe not. Probably not in my mind.But when someone puts it up as an internet poll and my mind gets racing about the fun of trying something like this out, and since its obviously not really going to happen I don't have to think about the negative side of it, I'll vote Yes all the time. I think you're looking too deeply into it Daniel. I think many of us voted yes in the same vein we think about winning the lottery. Its never going to happen, so it doesn't matter what our answer is and we're going to dream about using it to make millions.Saying something like we should go to jail, or we're being scummy, are pretty harsh words in response to a harmless poll. Its being the thought police, which Americans have enough problems with right now. You should be judging people by their actions, not by how they answer a nonsensical poll. I give $100 a paycheck to Phoenix Children's Hospital. I donate to several charities every month. I help out at St. Mary's Food Bank a couple times a year. I always buy a friend in need a beer or a snack. I donated over $1000 in toys last X-Mas. I *AM* that guy who will help an old lady put her groceries in the trunk, or walk across the street.And I voted yes on that poll. Because its just a silly internet poll.Should I go to jail? Honestly?Ray

When a hypothetical is stated, you're supposed to assume it is real, for the sake of argument. With your logic, the moment someone says, "let's say...", you would just say whatever first comes to mind, because it doesn't matter? If the question was, "would it be cool to be in Ocean's 11", then a lot would say yes. But to take part in it? No. In this case, assume the device is very real and you have access to it. You should go to jail if you did use it, because it's cheating. I agree no one should go to jail for thinking something...that was an over statement.

[TS Clark 0]

i absolutely would, and most of the people that say they wouldn't are lying.would you play the lottery if you knew the numbers before the drawing? i sure as hell would, and it's the same thing, since the lottery pool is made up entirely of the people's $.

i can honestly say i would not!!!

i can honestly say that you despise money.

No. But he can honestly say that his own self-respect and sense of integrity is more important to him than money. Which is a good thing, last time I checked. Unless you're a hooker or a drug dealer, where it's a career limitation.What you are saying above is analagous (if not quite in the same degree) as a sexual predator saying that anyone who wouldn't victimize a woman if given the chance to get away with it "honestly despise(s) sex."Being able to do what the OP described isn't "just" cheating -- it would be stealing, plain and simple. I'm many things (not all of them good), but I'm not a thief. I'm (mildly) surprised that so many people on this forum seem to have no issue with cheating and stealing. Because that's what it is.Sorry to be the heavy in what was probably a bit of a lark of a question. But this "if I CAN do it, I SHOULD do it" attitude is ridiculously pervasive in society. It needs to be stamped out.

[Guest Anonymous]

Hypothetical question. If you where given a software program that displayed other players cards at your table would you play and make $ or throw it away because of whatever your reason.Personnaly i would not do this because you are cheating and stealing money from people who play poker because mostly they enjoy the game and get enjoyment from winning based on there skills.Very curious to see what the poll results would be.

Talk to tritz. He has a program that does something similar.

[Matt Over Aces 0]

Just read the entire thread start to finish.I voted maybe.I really don't think that I could/would do it, but I also know that it is a very very tempting proposition that would be hard to say no to. I am not rich, but I am also not strapped for cash. I really believe that only in some dire situation (loan shark coming after my knees and such) would I cheat to make money that I couldn't get over time anyway.As for the other posts comparing finding money on the ground and drunks in the game, those are TOTALLY different.If I find money on the ground, I keep it. It doesn't belong to anyone anymore since it has no ID on it (credit cards and wallets are TOTALLY different, as I have found wallets and returned them to people). You have not stolen anything, you have found lost property.Drunks in the game donating their chips are doing so of their own free will. Just because they are not smart enough to protect their money, doesn't mean it's stealing when you take it off their hands.Cheating is stealing. It is NOT AN EDGE (for whoever said that), it is just wrong.

[RayPowers 0]

When a hypothetical is stated, you're supposed to assume it is real, for the sake of argument. With your logic, the moment someone says, "let's say...", you would just say whatever first comes to mind, because it doesn't matter? If the question was, "would it be cool to be in Ocean's 11", then a lot would say yes. But to take part in it? No. In this case, assume the device is very real and you have access to it. You should go to jail if you did use it, because it's cheating. I agree no one should go to jail for thinking something...that was an over statement.

This is a poll based on a Tritz thread that we all bashed for days, and I am supposed to take it seriously? You are a funny man. :)It would have taken a lot more in the initial post for me to have even thought of taking it seriously. The original post would have had to a) not have had "????" in the title.B) been spellchecked.c) Laid out more ground about and storyline to it, instead of being a blatant Tritz reference.Even then, I'm not sure I would have taken it seriously any more than the question "Hypothetically, what would you do if you won the lattery?" Why, because I'm not winning the lottery any time soon, so there's no reason to give it serious consideration. Therefore, all that is left is the glib response of "I'd fly to tahiti!" or the ever popular "Two chicks.. at the same time." The same applies to this question. Its not happeneing, so I'm not going to give it a ton of serious consideration. I will give it some FUN consideration though, and my fun joking side thinks "Heck yeah! That would be Funny!" because it's not bothering to think of consequences of these actions. *shrug* Sure it stealing. Its also not going to ever happen for real, so who cares who thinks about doing it? Like I said before, I just felt it was a bit spoilsport for Dan (and others) to come in here ripping people for answering yes, when I think most of answered yes out of fun, not evil.Ray

[Wingmaster05 0]

i absolutely would, and most of the people that say they wouldn't are lying.would you play the lottery if you knew the numbers before the drawing?  i sure as hell would, and it's the same thing, since the lottery pool is made up entirely of the people's $.

If you actively tried to discover the numbers for the lottery, then yes it's wrong. I don't know how you could do this...seeing as they draw the numbers on television, right?I don't know how else this hypothetical would work, unless someone gave you the numbers and said, "these are the winners, pick them." But then why the hell aren't they picking the numbers for themselves??? Now if i had a friend who worked for the lottery and he could guarantee me a wining ticket, i would have to say that it wouldn't feel nearly as bad as cheating in a colluding sense or using a program for poker. I would hope most people that are playing the lotto are only putting up 5 dollars max, the majority of people spending just a dollar. This would feel very dishonest to work the system, not so much cheating. Given the situation, i would have to think it over :wink: I would say the penalty of getting caught would keep me in check more than my moral views, which hopefully isn't the case for most situations.