poker is dead: negreanu on the state of poker

[beeker 0]

While I agree with Mr. Negareanu, I also posit an opposing view. Daniel with his new game Stacker is only pushing NLHE. He decries the state of affairs while only promoting the game WSOP is recognizing as THE GAME. Come now, what is good for the goose is good for the gander. If you want to get other games in the WSOP, then promote that.

[hime 0]

Man, understanding marketing can be really frustrating...

[chunky04 0]

beeker has a damn good point right there.Though I'd say there are decent techinical reasons for it being that way. The AI the game is based around is only for holdem I believe, and took 10 years to develop (though that could possibly be accelerated with a more commercially driven research program, its still not likely to be cost effective).Personally, I've only ever played in mixed games live (dealers choice involving far too many silly variations for my liking). I like playing various games, and its not like where I live there is a large amount of choice.

[Kangaroo 0]

While I agree with Mr. Negareanu, I also posit an opposing view. Daniel with his new game Stacker is only pushing NLHE. He decries the state of affairs while only promoting the game WSOP is recognizing as THE GAME. Come now, what is good for the goose is good for the gander. If you want to get other games in the WSOP, then promote that.

In my honest opinion there's a huge difference between promoting one section of the game to an audience as a player compared to the WSOP completely shunning the majority of poker games in their schedule.

[Tsosumi 0]

DN is an idiot for thinking....lmao....just kidding. Did I get you attention? I respect DN and he nailed what I was thinking about the state of poker. I play in a ton of NLH tournaments and am sort of tired of hold em. I got into a home game and was looking forward to some baseball and jacks or better, but the rest of the players wanted me to teach them how to play hold em. good GAWD! Maybe I will try to organize a large Omaha event or the Omaha Poker Championships, the OPC. Nothing but Omaha. Pot Limit OmahaOmaha 2-7Limit OmahaOmaha H/LAwarding points to players how they finish in each event and then have the top 16 go heads up playing Pot Limit Omaha. Having tie breakers in place to get to the top 16, or have the tied players do a short handed table or heads up.Well I do live in Omaha, but the casino's are in Counciltucky, umm, Council Bluffs for those in Iowa (dont worry they don't know I am making fun of them).Now who could I start contacting to make that happen?Ohhh, how about having the event on April Fools Day? That gives plenty of time for marketing and organizing. lol.

[h20man65 0]

:twisted: Unfortunately the WSOP will never be the same. It is now a commodity and BIG BUSINESS has it in its mits. I don't believe it will be the "World Champion" event it began as, just a huge tourney venue. Sad to see an icon go this route, but it happens. Professional poker players have a huge voice collectively. Perhaps now is the time to organize into some sort of "major league". There is a lot of building bricks out there for vertually every aspect of the game....maybe a player organisation should take the bull by the horns. Profit is what it has been and always will be, what is a stake here is the integrity of the game. Business has gotten the game to the high profile it now enjoys, but is this what is really important? For them it is.... Anyway, just some food for thought.

[dalecooper 0]

I'm with Daniel, what they're doing to the WSOP is absurd. Of course it has a problem already in that it hardly illustrates who is actually the best player - the winner of the main event hasn't been the best poker player (or even the best hold 'em player... or even the best tournament hold 'em player!) in years. But this exacerbates the problem. It's now as good as "just another tournament event"... a way for the hosting casino to make a huge pile of cash. There's no integrity to it at all. Of course all major sporting events (the Superbowl, the NBA finals, etc.) are more about the money than anything else, but at least for the athletes involved there is some higher ideal - some manifestation of the ultimate goal in competition, which is to move ahead of the pack. To be the best. With the way the WSOP is going now, what will represent the same thing in the world of poker? Nothing. WSOP is already fish-dominated, and with lower buy-ins and more hold 'em, it will be even more so. Good players can't effectively swim against those schools. You get swept downriver. They'd be better off playing each other in WPT events.I maintain that somebody needs to put together a poker invitational in a tournament structure, that incorporates multiple games and events within each game, and uses something like the player of the year leaderboard to determine the finalists. The WPT is closest but the variety of games isn't enough. It would be invite-only and you have to place in one of a number of different large tournaments before hand to get in. No open-invite like the WSOP events, with the winners of hundreds of crapshoot-satellites, or anybody with $10K, walking in like god's gift to poker. No luckboxes like Moneymaker going the distance and then getting proclaimed "World Champion."There are tournaments all over the place for medium-buyin hold 'em games. It's a shame the WSOP is sending the message that they are now just the most famous of those tournaments.

[princeof56k 0]

What makes me laugh is that poker players (who primarily play poker for money) are complaining that the people running the WSOP are primarily concerned about making money.Your average everday person showing up at these things isnt concerned about the joy of the game or the future of poker. They are concerned with either making a big score or watching someone else do it. The game they play really matters very little. NL Holdem happens to be the one they've gravitated towards due to how dramatic it plays TV and how easy it is to understand the basics of the game. Try explaining to someone how to play Razz and see the glazed/bored look in their eyes. They dont want to learn. They want to bet large sums of money.The popularity of NL Holdem has brought more people to poker than ever. Lets not forget that.

[rbakken2504 0]

Here is my idea for some organization to start up and make a REAL championship:1-$10,000 buy-in for each event must run a minimum of 3 or 4 days.The Main Event would be a $50,000 or $100,000 buyin NL holdem or HORSE Event to decide the World's Best Poker Player, and world's best poker player in each game for that year. This event would run at least 5 days. Just my opinion.

[Gods Balls 0]

Why not start an alternative tournament beginning just before or after the WSOP, spreading the word through all the big boy connections.Get all the big name players to not show up for over half of the WSOP, and they'll pay attention to you. And it's not really to screw them, it's just to make it clear that you want other games. If they don't comply, then you have an alternative that would probably draw at least a couple hundred a match.So, alternatively, your "alternative tournament" with all the games the best players love, could become a successful money maker in itself. Surely the WYNN/Bellagio empire would consider to take part in this. As long as it wasn't specifically cutting the time of the WSOP, it wouldn't be hurting them.Food for thinking... :?

[Gods Balls 0]

I didn't notice someone above saying just about the same thing as I did, so don't get your panties in a huff.I just instantly thought, after reading the blog, that "hey, start an alternative tourney before or after, with those specific games, and boycotting at least as many days as there should be for alternative games. OR, have your alternative tourney on those exact days during the WSOP, once every week and a half or so. Not a bad idea, I say.

[rbakken2504 0]

I didn't notice someone above saying just about the same thing as I did, so don't get your panties in a huff.I just instantly thought, after reading the blog, that "hey, start an alternative tourney before or after, with those specific games, and boycotting at least as many days as there should be for alternative games.  OR, have your alternative tourney on those exact days during the WSOP, once every week and a half or so. Not a bad idea, I say.

As much as i like having my panties in a huff, i totally agree, and would hope someone would do this, i believe it is a better structure than the current WSOP and would DEFINE a champion in every game, instead of many bracelet winners in the same game.

[Gods Balls 0]

Only problem would probably be, if I read correctly, that D.Neg. is partial owner of card player now. No?So someone else would have to do this, or he would ruffle others at the mag by doing this, since they are so proud to be the "official poker magazine of the WSOP". So, it could be done with recommendation, but not spearheaded by mr. D. himself surely.

[Steppin Razor 0]

While I agree with the substance of DN's criticism, I do think Mojo_Yugen has a point about the criticism of the 'bottom line'. All pro's are taking advantage of the popularity of Hold Em. DN has plenty of ventures to profit from the Hold Em boom, including Stacked (and Stacked poker chips, check 'em out http://www.5stardeal.com/expand.asp?pid=11149 ).Especially in the gambling field, people are going to exploit every edge they get. If I had the buy in for a challenge match w/Daniel, he probably couldn't get there fast enough. Easiest 500K he ever made. So I don't think it's really fair to get mad at 'corporatization' of Poker.A boycott by several pros might get the games back, but I doubt they'll be willing to do it. Maybe a Players Union would be a direction to look into.What would be cool if Daniel really thinks other games need more representation, would be for him to use his position at the Wynn to get them to spread other games in their poker room.

However this is the way things go these days- corporate profit dominates and sucks the life out of what you love.

So when you go up the hill and snowboard back down it now, snowboarding is different?I suspect Daniel is still going to enjoy poker, even at the WSOP, regardless of the corporate suits.

[gary 0]

New member, but some thoughts:"top players" boycotting WSOP? So what? Who would care at thispoint in time? The masses have spoken: NLHE tournaments have the publics interest.What other tournament series has the events that Dan N. would prefer?What are the viable alternatives?WSOP has changed, and changed due to vastly increased popularity ofNLHE tournaments. Without this, no "top player" would be able to potentially be as wealthy, well-known, etc., as they are at present.best,gary

[Guest]

The main event has mushroomed in size partially due to people winning seats in online satellites. Perhaps petitioning the most popular online cardrooms to run satellites for the various other tournaments would be effective. I seem to remember taking some survey for Absolute where they asked if I would be interesting in online satellites to the Omaha and Stud events in the WSOP, so it seems they're open to the idea. Also many of the top players have ties with some online site or another, so they could push the idea.

[Tsosumi 0]

reading Daniel's blogs one can see that several hundred thousand dollar swings occur when the big dogs play. so what is a 10K dollar entrance fee?Another thing to do would be limit "main events" to players who have gotten a cash in a qualifier for that event? If it is to be a true world series then hold regional qualifiers in countries, or nearest country that allows gambling, based on one's citizenship. How about a upper echelon tournament where in order to even qualify one must have at least one bracelet from the WSOP AND pony up a 1,000,000 dollar entrance fee.....no sattalite entries. The vig would be covered by whomever gets the broadcast rites. They would pay for the location and other administrative costs from the marketing money not the entrance fees. NL Texas Hold EmPot Limit Omaha7 Stud5 draw2-7 NL Single drawWinner of each event gets 10% of the pool. Player with highest average finish gets remainder of pool. In case of a tie, any tied players go heads up in Linit Hold Em.

[srblan 0]

Bettor?

One who bets.

[chrozzo 19]

Waht is the game SHOE and HORSE in poker? I never read about these.

[srblan 0]

Waht is the game SHOE and HORSE in poker? I never read about these.

Those are combination games. I believe that the game is set up so that each level is a different game. In SHOE, it's first stud, then holdem, then omaha high-low, then stud eight or better. HORSE adds Razz (7 card stud low) to the mix.

[KVOM 0]

A few thoughts:a) DN (or anyone else) can choose to play in the main event only, as opposed to all of the smaller buy-in NL events.B) I doubt anyone really thinks the WSOP determines the "best" poker player. Or any other event for that matter. The huge fields means that any skilled player can strike it lucky one week.c) The proliferation of events means that the "bracelet" cachet is devalued.Recently I have been playing a lot less HL (S&Gs on the Internet) in favor of PL O8 and some 7SHL8, and find the variety adds a lot to the enjoyment. I can see where DN would like the same variety at the WSOP. However, as a businessman I canm certainly appreciate how the CEO of a major public company would be primarily interested in the event's profitability, as opposed to pleasing the top players. I suspect ESPN has some input into the decisions as well.