i guesse god's a bully

[BilliardsBoy 0]

Glad to see that the two extremists proved my point through lack of understanding.Oh wow, you both agreed with eachother. Incredible.I think the fact that both of you were angered by my points only proves that you are both fanatically at the ends of the spectrum. No point in trying to say anything else I guess.I'll leave this thread alone then.

[Loismustdie 0]

I am tryin to understand your stance on the trinity lois...Here are the facts tell me if i understood you right? 1. God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit make up the trinity2. All three are God3. All three are seperate persons yet all make up God3. All three are equalsI think this is what you have said just wanted to make sure. The trinity can be very confusing for some

No- God is one entity- the Holy Spirit is another- Christ is another- they all 3 agree as one but they are not one and the same. The trinity is a myth, you cannot prove it biblically, and if you think you can I would like to hear it.

[Loismustdie 0]

Glad to see that the two extremists proved my point through lack of understanding.Oh wow, you both agreed with eachother. Incredible.I think the fact that both of you were angered by my points only proves that you are both fanatically at the ends of the spectrum. No point in trying to say anything else I guess.I'll leave this thread alone then.

I am not angry with you!! I tottaly get what you are doing, just kind of making up what you feel God wants- but I assure you it is not good enough.

[Mattnxtc 0]

I am tryin to understand your stance on the trinity lois...Here are the facts tell me if i understood you right? 1. God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit make up the trinity2. All three are God3. All three are seperate persons yet all make up God3. All three are equalsI think this is what you have said just wanted to make sure. The trinity can be very confusing for some

No- God is one entity- the Holy Spirit is another- Christ is another- they all 3 agree as one but they are not one and the same. The trinity is a myth, you cannot prove it biblically, and if you think you can I would like to hear it.

You are half right and as i dont have the verses on me at the moment i will look for them later on...but off the top of my head is the verse "I and the Father are one" or something to that effect. I am unsure of the exact verse it is but that is the clearest reference that comes to mind...

[Loismustdie 0]

I am tryin to understand your stance on the trinity lois...Here are the facts tell me if i understood you right? 1. God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit make up the trinity2. All three are God3. All three are seperate persons yet all make up God3. All three are equalsI think this is what you have said just wanted to make sure. The trinity can be very confusing for some

No- God is one entity- the Holy Spirit is another- Christ is another- they all 3 agree as one but they are not one and the same. The trinity is a myth, you cannot prove it biblically, and if you think you can I would like to hear it.

You are half right and as i dont have the verses on me at the moment i will look for them later on...but off the top of my head is the verse "I and the Father are one" or something to that effect. I am unsure of the exact verse it is but that is the clearest reference that comes to mind...

I know the verse you speak of- it is one that people who defend the trinity will bring up, but taken into context he is refering to he and god being on the same side. Think about this- when God created man he said to the ones that were with him- " Let us make man in our image. " We know that he is talking in a spiritual sense there since God is not flesh and blood, but who is he talking to? We know that Christ was there because he speaks of being present at the time of creation- So, considering God addresses them as an individual it is not a stretch to think that they actually are- Jesus prayed to god, never to himself, consistently refered to his father in heaven- there is to much evidence against them being one as opposed to evidence for.

[BilliardsBoy 0]

I am not angry with you!! I tottaly get what you are doing, just kind of making up what you feel God wants- but I assure you it is not good enough.

There is nothing in a book I can quote to make anyone understand. I grew up Catholic and learned from the book, but what I learned was the overall message of what it says. For arguements between the different sides, using the book for contextual evidence is pointless. Even if you don't believe it, your consistant "let me throw some scripture at you" doesn't prove anything. When you talk about God, tell me what you feel deep down, not what some line from the Bible says.As a person of religion LMD, you would agree that God is in each of us, that his light shines from our own inner light. In that regard, I feel it unneccessary to give someone as yourself proof via print, and I think that someone like yourself should be aware enough to not ask it.I try not to judge because my judgement means little (splinter in the eye if you will). All I can do is live my life based on the moral codes that faith and religion have helped shape in humanity over thousands of years. I said what I believe God wants, but did not proclaim that as fact.I'll grant you Tro that religion does cause a problem, which is what my posts were saying. I openly and plainly stated, in my very first post, that it is pointless for different religions to fight one another because, on the very premiss of faith and God, no person or group of persons could possibly determine the will of God. No one religion is right because understanding something infinite from a finite POV is an impossibility.For you to jump on what I believe shows me that you have a hard time separating religion from faith, which are two seperate things. Many scientists, Einstein and Hawkings included, believe in a higher power. What religion they buy into means nothing to me. Lumping people as part of the "religion machine" simply because they have faith is unwise (and don't say you didn't, because you plainly called me out as a Christian trying to fabricate lies to fill the holes of the Bible, etc).You are both inteligent posters with tons of books, articles, historical references and scientific questions to help you each prove your own points. My point is simply the fact that faith, in its truest concept, is unproveable. It is something from within that can't be shown to others except by ones own words.

[Loismustdie 0]

The thing is this- understanding what God wants is easy, understanding his point of view is easy, it's all in the scriptures- " Deeper faith " or not at some point you have to reconcile yourself with scripture or there is no entry into heaven, it really is just that simple. I understand where you are coming from but understand this- no matter what I think God wants of me at some point I have to concede that the only way to heaven is via the map he gave us. I question God all the time, I push the boundaries to allow for the things that this flesh wants/desires just like anyone else- at some point though I have to make sure that God is O.K. with or behind the choices that I make,and more often than not my will is not Gods, so I end up on the wrong spectrum of things. Do you understand where I am coming from?

[DerekTah 0]

I only want to say one thing to the original poster.The only reason why one should become Christian is if they believe in Christ. Anything else is just "lip-service" and it will not help you in the end. I know there seems to be many christians that believe that as long as you go to church you can still be a non-believer but God will accept you. I don't believe in that and I am sorry you obviously had to go through people who did beleive so.I think you are being unfair on Pharoh. You don't think it just what God did to the Egyptions, well I ask what about the Jews who were enslaved, torured, and killed throughout the year in which Egypt exploited them. God didn't bring the plages down to "teach Pharoh a lesson". He brought them down to free the Jews. Is it just, in this story it is. I doubt you will agree with that but that is how I feel about the story.

[BilliardsBoy 0]

I understand where you are coming from but understand this- no matter what I think God wants of me at some point I have to concede that the only way to heaven is via the map he gave us. I question God all the time, I push the boundaries to allow for the things that this flesh wants/desires just like anyone else- at some point though I have to make sure that God is O.K. with or behind the choices that I make,and more often than not my will is not Gods, so I end up on the wrong spectrum of things. Do you understand where I am coming from?

I completely do, I just tend to disagree slightly.Freshman year me and a few others got into a long discussion with a member of CCC (Campus Crusade for Christ). In that discussion, he made clear his view that he knew he was going to heaven because he believed in Jesus Christ.I posed then my on POV: what if someone, who didn't personally believe there was a God, but led a good life, was a good moral person, died. I just don't think I could believe in a God who would turn this person away, deny him eternal happiness, simply because he got to the final destination without "following the map".It is my belief that while the Bible is a good map, that we each have a light inside us that helps guide us. If someone was born on an island and was never exposed to The Book, this person could still be a good and true person in the eyes of God.Learning from the Bible isn't in itself bad, but taking it as absolute truth is, I think, dangerous. It leads to factioning of people in the world, people who all share faith but don't share the same "map". My compass of what is right or wrong tells me that this cannot be right.

[Loismustdie 0]

I understand where you are coming from but understand this- no matter what I think God wants of me at some point I have to concede that the only way to heaven is via the map he gave us. I question God all the time, I push the boundaries to allow for the things that this flesh wants/desires just like anyone else- at some point though I have to make sure that God is O.K. with or behind the choices that I make,and more often than not my will is not Gods, so I end up on the wrong spectrum of things. Do you understand where I am coming from?

I completely do, I just tend to disagree slightly.Freshman year me and a few others got into a long discussion with a member of CCC (Campus Crusade for Christ). In that discussion, he made clear his view that he knew he was going to heaven because he believed in Jesus Christ.I posed then my on POV: what if someone, who didn't personally believe there was a God, but led a good life, was a good moral person, died. I just don't think I could believe in a God who would turn this person away, deny him eternal happiness, simply because he got to the final destination without "following the map".It is my belief that while the Bible is a good map, that we each have a light inside us that helps guide us. If someone was born on an island and was never exposed to The Book, this person could still be a good and true person in the eyes of God.Learning from the Bible isn't in itself bad, but taking it as absolute truth is, I think, dangerous. It leads to factioning of people in the world, people who all share faith but don't share the same "map". My compass of what is right or wrong tells me that this cannot be right.

Now I see- you are a what iffer- sorry if I categorize but you fall under that one. What if you lived on an island all by yourself? What if you had never heard of Jesus but were a decent person. The answer unfortunately is this- " No man cometh to the father but by me. " Even for something as simple as prayer you have got to go through Jesus, period. There is no other way, he could not have made it more cut and dry for you!! You realize that you are the stereotypical pseudochristian that is so popular these days- it's not like this is some unique new way of looking at religion, alot of people are looking at god in this light- it doesn't mean he will start recognizing you though, God does not change and he layed out a perfect plan already- all you have to do is do or don't do, when it comes to this God leaves no gray area. Sorry.

[Mattnxtc 0]

I am tryin to understand your stance on the trinity lois...Here are the facts tell me if i understood you right? 1. God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit make up the trinity2. All three are God3. All three are seperate persons yet all make up God3. All three are equalsI think this is what you have said just wanted to make sure. The trinity can be very confusing for some

No- God is one entity- the Holy Spirit is another- Christ is another- they all 3 agree as one but they are not one and the same. The trinity is a myth, you cannot prove it biblically, and if you think you can I would like to hear it.

You are half right and as i dont have the verses on me at the moment i will look for them later on...but off the top of my head is the verse "I and the Father are one" or something to that effect. I am unsure of the exact verse it is but that is the clearest reference that comes to mind...

I know the verse you speak of- it is one that people who defend the trinity will bring up, but taken into context he is refering to he and god being on the same side. Think about this- when God created man he said to the ones that were with him- " Let us make man in our image. " We know that he is talking in a spiritual sense there since God is not flesh and blood, but who is he talking to? We know that Christ was there because he speaks of being present at the time of creation- So, considering God addresses them as an individual it is not a stretch to think that they actually are- Jesus prayed to god, never to himself, consistently refered to his father in heaven- there is to much evidence against them being one as opposed to evidence for.

The problem is that Neither Jesus nor the Holy Spirit are less God than God the Father. They are equal in ever sense of the word. Yes they all have different roles but they come together to form what we know as God. Without one of the 3 God could not exist and therefore God must be all 3.

[Mattnxtc 0]

I know there seems to be many christians that believe that as long as you go to church you can still be a non-believer but God will accept you.I believer it was derek that said this and im going to have to strongly disagree. no informed christian shoudl believe this and if they do well they have been very wrongly informed.

[crowTrobot 2]

Many scientists, Einstein and Hawkings included, believe in a higher power.

no they don't (didn't). that's a popular falacy because both the respective comments "god does not play dice" (einstein just referring to his refusal to accept the random nature of quantum mechanics), and "know the mind of god" (hawking referring to humans understanding the workings of the universe if we can find the "final theory") are frequently taken out of context. they were (are) both agnostic. hawking's theories in particular are about as god-free as you can get.

[Loismustdie 0]

I am tryin to understand your stance on the trinity lois...Here are the facts tell me if i understood you right? 1. God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit make up the trinity2. All three are God3. All three are seperate persons yet all make up God3. All three are equalsI think this is what you have said just wanted to make sure. The trinity can be very confusing for some

No- God is one entity- the Holy Spirit is another- Christ is another- they all 3 agree as one but they are not one and the same. The trinity is a myth, you cannot prove it biblically, and if you think you can I would like to hear it.

You are half right and as i dont have the verses on me at the moment i will look for them later on...but off the top of my head is the verse "I and the Father are one" or something to that effect. I am unsure of the exact verse it is but that is the clearest reference that comes to mind...

I know the verse you speak of- it is one that people who defend the trinity will bring up, but taken into context he is refering to he and god being on the same side. Think about this- when God created man he said to the ones that were with him- " Let us make man in our image. " We know that he is talking in a spiritual sense there since God is not flesh and blood, but who is he talking to? We know that Christ was there because he speaks of being present at the time of creation- So, considering God addresses them as an individual it is not a stretch to think that they actually are- Jesus prayed to god, never to himself, consistently refered to his father in heaven- there is to much evidence against them being one as opposed to evidence for.

The problem is that Neither Jesus nor the Holy Spirit are less God than God the Father. They are equal in ever sense of the word. Yes they all have different roles but they come together to form what we know as God. Without one of the 3 God could not exist and therefore God must be all 3.

You are confusing the facts, and you will need to show me scripture to back all of that up: A. Holy spirit- purpose is to help guide you, indwelling of the holy spirit takes place at baptism. B. Christ- The son of god- came down from heaven to deliver a message from god. C. God- Creator of all, ruler of all nature and the author of physical life as we know it. Christ did not create the earth- God did. God did not come down from heaven and die on the cross- christ did. When you are baptized you do not receive God or christ inside you, you receive the Holy Spirit. All three of these entities agree as one- yet they are all seperate entities. Example- My wif, my daughter and I live under the same roof, we share the same ideas, eat the same food, we are just like one- yet we are not one. It is essentially the same thing. As far as God not existing if they did not exist- thats a first. Actually, nothing would be here if it were not for God so I have to be honest I have no idea what you are talking about- I know that whatever it is it is not scriptual that is for sure.

[timwakefield 68]

Many scientists, Einstein and Hawkings included, believe in a higher power.

no they don't (didn't). that's a popular falacy because both the respective comments "god does not play dice" (einstein just referring to his refusal to accept the random nature of quantum mechanics), and "know the mind of god" (hawking referring to humans understanding the workings of the universe if we can find the "final theory") are frequently taken out of context. they were (are) both agnostic. hawking's theories in particular are about as god-free as you can get.

In "A Brief History of Time," Hawking often discusses God. He never really gives his own religious beliefs point-blank, but he willingly assumes (perhaps for arguments' sake) that God exists, and works from there. The point is that His existence in no way refutes or goes against Hawking's studies on the nature of the universe."Science seems to have uncovered a set of laws that, within the limits set by the uncertainty principle, tell us how the universe will develop with time, if we know its state at any one time. These laws may have originally been decreed by God, but it appears that he has since left the universe to evolve according to them and does not now intervene in it." - HawkingIf the universe, before the big bang, was a singularity, then there is no way of determining who or what existed before the big bang, or how the laws of space and time would have acted. In this he sees room for a God. Hawking also says:"At the end of the conference the participants were granted an audience with the pope. He told us that it was all right to study the evolution of the universe after the big bang, but we should not inquire into the big bang itself because that was the moment of Creation and therefore the work of God. I was glad then that he did not know the subject of the talk I had just given at the conference - the possibility that space-time was finite but had no boundary, which means that it had no beginning, no moment of Creation. I had no desire to share the fate of Galileo, with whom I feel a strong sense of identity, partly because of the coincidence of having been born exactly 300 years after his death!"I think we can see that he is NOT a "believer."

[Pupsta 0]

I personally think you are missing the point though.You are trying to understand God through a book.Doubters are trying to deny God because of people who try to understand God through a book.I think you will find that, at heart, these are both ridiculous and unfortunate.I think God might as well, but I'm not about to assume anything about what God thinks and intends. I leave God's work to God, and simply try to live my life based on the overall messages given in the Bible (which are similar to almost all religious books and teachings at root) and what I feel in my soul is the right thing to do.

Wrong- I am trying to undestand what God wants of me thorough a book that he had written for me. It's not like I am using a cookbook, now that would be ridiculous and unfortunate. So, what you are basically saying that I try to live christianity by a book written specifically for it, and you try to live it by your own made up ideas. Way to prove crowTrobots point, dude. I think God might as well, but I am not about to assume what God thinks..... that's odd, you started out doing just that. Tough to prove your arguments when your just making it up on the fly my man- I can say for a certainty crowTrobot will own you.

at least a cookbook serves a purpose.

[Mattnxtc 0]

woah lois u are getting off track by narrowing Jesus and the Holy Spirt down to such a specific roleJesus first: He existed before timeJohn 1:1-5 this references to Jesus and as you see he is shown as very much more than just a Son of God. He is shown John 8:58 - before Abraham was born, I amboth show that he existed well before time. Isaiah 9:6 - For a child will be bornto us, a son will be given to us; and the governemnt will rest on His shoulders; and His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Might God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peaceagain he is called God not seen as lesser than GodI can go on if more is neededHoly Spirit: now does he come into man, Yes of course but u have such a narrow view that while again its part it is not the whole truthJohn 15:26 When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, 1Corinthians 2:11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.Even more proof that he is much moreGenesis 1:2 it says that the "Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters"Similarly all 3 share similar attributes such as omniscience, omnipotence, Eternity and so forthSo to say that they are not equal is very wrong and you really need to either spend some time with somebody who can explain it correctly or do some more reading

[Loismustdie 0]

I personally think you are missing the point though.You are trying to understand God through a book.Doubters are trying to deny God because of people who try to understand God through a book.I think you will find that, at heart, these are both ridiculous and unfortunate.I think God might as well, but I'm not about to assume anything about what God thinks and intends. I leave God's work to God, and simply try to live my life based on the overall messages given in the Bible (which are similar to almost all religious books and teachings at root) and what I feel in my soul is the right thing to do.

Wrong- I am trying to undestand what God wants of me thorough a book that he had written for me. It's not like I am using a cookbook, now that would be ridiculous and unfortunate. So, what you are basically saying that I try to live christianity by a book written specifically for it, and you try to live it by your own made up ideas. Way to prove crowTrobots point, dude. I think God might as well, but I am not about to assume what God thinks..... that's odd, you started out doing just that. Tough to prove your arguments when your just making it up on the fly my man- I can say for a certainty crowTrobot will own you.

at least a cookbook serves a purpose.

LOL Good one.

[Loismustdie 0]

woah lois u are getting off track by narrowing Jesus and the Holy Spirt down to such a specific roleJesus first: He existed before timeJohn 1:1-5 this references to Jesus and as you see he is shown as very much more than just a Son of God. He is shown John 8:58 - before Abraham was born, I amboth show that he existed well before time. Isaiah 9:6 - For a child will be bornto us, a son will be given to us; and the governemnt will rest on His shoulders; and His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Might God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peaceagain he is called God not seen as lesser than GodI can go on if more is neededHoly Spirit: now does he come into man, Yes of course but u have such a narrow view that while again its part it is not the whole truthJohn 15:26 When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, 1Corinthians 2:11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.Even more proof that he is much moreGenesis 1:2 it says that the "Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters"Similarly all 3 share similar attributes such as omniscience, omnipotence, Eternity and so forthSo to say that they are not equal is very wrong and you really need to either spend some time with somebody who can explain it correctly or do some more reading

I never said they were not equal!!! Just broke down there roles- what they do in the big scheme of things. O.K.,obviously Christ has been around for awhile, he was there to witness creation. Where you are getting lost is you somehow make them all one and the same- and they are not. Not one scripture allludes to the 3 entities being one. I am disproving the trinity- you are avoiding the subject entirely. Do you get me yet?

[Mattnxtc 0]

you have not disproved anything. If you take the time to read the Bible you will see that all 3 are mentioned as God. Yes I will repeat it...As God. Never once are they seen as God 1, God 2 God 3. They are referred to as God. Jesus is referred to as Yahweh just as God the Father is also referred to as Yahweh. So please explain how i am missing the point. Lois you sound like u honestly do know some things but u are severely misguided and i honestly hope that you would get either more involved with ur church or involved with a church as you do know some things but you dont understand.

[DerekTah 0]

I know there seems to be many christians that believe that as long as you go to church you can still be a non-believer but God will accept you.I believer it was derek that said this and im going to have to strongly disagree. no informed christian shoudl believe this and if they do well they have been very wrongly informed.

I disagree with that belief too. I was pointing out that alot of christians (in paticular those who go on talk shows) like using the "if there is nothing then it won't matter if your religious, if there is a god then you will be saved" is suggesting lip-service over actual faith. Its both an insult to the person your trying to convert and an insult to god. God wants believers not people who are just there.

[Tparks86 0]

A misguided person would be someone who says all of the things you have without any clear understanding of them whatsoever. God asked Abraham to kill his son, not because "he can", but because he was strengthening Abraham's trust in Him. This didn't ruin the family's relationship at all.God didn't act in Egypt to "teach Pharoh a lesson", but to make it clear that the Hebrews were His chosen people, and to deliver them from Pharoh's rule. You should only believe in God if you have a reason to. If you don't know God, or anything about Him, or His love for you, then I can clearly see why you wouldn't want to believe in that kind of God. I believe in God because he gave me life, and health, and this beautiful world to live in. I believe in a God who sent his Son to cover the sins of a world that betrayed Him. I believe that through grace I am saved. There's no belief involved in "convering your arse". In that case, there's no reason to believe.

According to lois, God does things because "He Can"Making bets with Satan and destroying one man's life is ok. He had to prove a point, but won't pay for it himself. (fallacy)Abraham is attacking his son with a knife. Ruining there family relationship. That's ok cause "he can". (fallacy)Persecuting all those around the pharoh to teach the pharoh a "lesson"That's ok too. (fallacy)I should believe in a god because, if there is one, then i'm saved!!! and if there isn't, at least i covered my Arrrrsse. (fallacy)I should let God do these things without questioning the morality of God's actions because, he''s avengeful and if I don't worship him i'm going to this place you call "hell" and i'm going to be hung by my baaalls. (fallacy)A logical person questions what is fed to him or her and decides if the arguements hold true or not. A "yes man" type just does what he/she is told and taught and is controlled by other people or supernatural entities. Are you going to call me "misguided" or lost just because I'm questioning what is put in front of me? Doesn't everyone question things outside of religion in there day to day life? Why is it wrong when it comes to believing in all this supernatural stuff that you can't even prove?

[timwakefield 68]

GUESS is spelled with one E

[BilliardsBoy 0]

GUESS is spelled with one E

Most factual post of this entire thread!I noticed that too, well done Wake.

[mk 11]

Nice posts, billiardsboy. You and I have had our political disagreements in the past, but our thoughts on religion are surprisingly similar.