hand late in the deepstack pstars tourney last night

[msummers 0]

PokerStars Game #2870521240: Tournament #13822822, Hold'em No Limit - Level XIII (1000/2000) - 2005/10/23 - 00:58:13 (ET) Table '13822822 68' Seat #8 is the button Seat 2: MiamiDan (85331 in chips) Seat 3: VolFan777 (22624 in chips) Seat 4: gsavato (43649 in chips) Seat 5: doomed222 (195411 in chips) Seat 6: ONEPOT (38263 in chips) Seat 7: The Kronzs (51507 in chips) Seat 8: steedie7 (12230 in chips) Seat 9: gguzzo (39675 in chips) MiamiDan: posts the ante 100 VolFan777: posts the ante 100 gsavato: posts the ante 100 doomed222: posts the ante 100 ONEPOT: posts the ante 100 The Kronzs: posts the ante 100 steedie7: posts the ante 100 gguzzo: posts the ante 100 gguzzo: posts small blind 1000 MiamiDan: posts big blind 2000 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to The Kronzs [Jd Ad] VolFan777: folds gsavato: folds doomed222: folds gguzzo said, "what up will" ONEPOT: folds VolFan777 said, "TY" The Kronzs: raises 4000 to 6000 steedie7: folds gguzzo: folds MiamiDan: calls 4000 *** FLOP *** [3h Ks As] MiamiDan: bets 4000 gguzzo said, "i am watching" The Kronzs: raises 8000 to 12000 MiamiDan: calls 8000 *** TURN *** [3h Ks As] [8s] MiamiDan: bets 67231 and is all-in The Kronzs: folds MiamiDan collected 37800 from pot *** SUMMARY *** Total pot 37800 | Rake 0 Board [3h Ks As 8s]This hand occured when there were around 70 ppl left............i was already in the money and just below stack averagehere are a couple of things i was thinking over after the hand1) was it time to make a move, with 70 ppl left and avg stack over 100k2) What hand did he have?did he really have the flush....bet all in with a premium hand?? (did he have a low flush, afraid of seeing one more spade)two pair? ace - worse kick than mine? It seems like when its time to make really important decisions late in tourneys that i am struggling to make the right move what do you guys think?

[Hand_Cracker 0]

i would say the two biggest possibilities are,(in order)1) Two Pair: on the button he could be playing A3, A8, K8 if he had AK i think he wouldve raised your bet preflop.2) Bluffing: in this situation he could be bullying you since you have a shorter stack than him, and playing off the flush scare card. if he had a flush i dont believe(even if it was small) that he would push, he would probably try to get a call out of you and risk another heart hitting.soo, if you have any reads on him, or have seen him muck some hands on the river where he was possibly bluffing, or possibly show down a bluff, you should take this information into consideration, put him on a hand, and then make your decision.with lack of a read its hard to say what i would do.

[Herr Baader 0]

My guess is that you had him beat but that he had a strong draw on the turn:e.g. he was holding KQ (where the Q is a spade), so he probably figured he had 8 outs to the nut flush, and that he might very well be good if he hits another K or Q (say 3 outs). He doesn't put you on the flush, so he puts you to the test, figuring if you call he's got plenty of outs.

[srharris22 0]

ok tough hand, maybe you laid down the best hand, but i think you were beat. tough to make a read of hand like this w/o any other information, what was your table image? what was his table image? had you been stealing blinds from him? had he played over the top very often on other players?NO matter, i probably would fold there also w/o any other info. But your question about when to push, i think my math has you at about 33k or so after all that betting and then losing the pot? ok close enough, it is costing you about 3900 at that time to see one orbit, so you are close to 8x that or you could sit out and be blinded out over the next 72 hands if you are 9 handed. Great part of harringtons book if you don't have it. Here i would not consider it time to get crazy. yeah sure the average is at 100k, but who cares, with a tourney at 30 minute blinds and you having enough chips to blind out through 8 orbits, you have plenty of opportunity to pick a big hand and push or steal a few blinds to stay afloat.I would start getting nervous when you have about 5x the orbit, and pushing any Ax with about 2-3x the orbit. tough thing is that at 5x orbit or so you have about only 1 move and that is all in with 8x you can try to raise 1 or 2 pots minimally to steal or inflate but not my recommendations b/c i want to double up that 33k and not just double up 25k.

[gobears 0]

By only raising it up to 12K on the turn, you didn't pot commit yourself but you also gave him odds to draw to the flush (he had to call another 8K into a 31K pot). He probably put you on an A-big with a 75% chance that you don't have a spade in your hand. Once that spade hits on the turn, he can put you to the test. He may even have hit the non-nut flush with say Js10s or he has a draw to the nut-flush with KxQs.I fold as you have 33K in chips left so your M is still above 8. If you're going to play it to the end; then I would have pushed on the flop and made him pay to see the rest of the cards. The way he played it, I think that you're ahead post-flop of most hands that he could have had.

[screech 0]

He probably put you on an A-big with a 75% chance that you don't have a spade in your hand.

Playing your opponents hand is what makes nl fun. :-)

[Swift_Psycho 1]

I fold as you have 33K in chips left so your M is still above 8. If you're going to play it to the end; then I would have pushed on the flop and made him pay to see the rest of the cards.

[copernicus 0]

ok tough hand, maybe you laid down the best hand, but i think you were beat. tough to make a read of hand like this w/o any other information, what was your table image? what was his table image? had you been stealing blinds from him? had he played over the top very often on other players?NO matter, i probably would fold there also w/o any other info. But your question about when to push, i think my math has you at about 33k or so after all that betting and then losing the pot? ok close enough, it is costing you about 3900 at that time to see one orbit, so you are close to 8x that or you could sit out and be blinded out over the next 72 hands if you are 9 handed. Great part of harringtons book if you don't have it. Here i would not consider it time to get crazy. yeah sure the average is at 100k, but who cares, with a tourney at 30 minute blinds and you having enough chips to blind out through 8 orbits, you have plenty of opportunity to pick a big hand and push or steal a few blinds to stay afloat.I would start getting nervous when you have about 5x the orbit, and pushing any Ax with about 2-3x the orbit. tough thing is that at 5x orbit or so you have about only 1 move and that is all in with 8x you can try to raise 1 or 2 pots minimally to steal or inflate but not my recommendations b/c i want to double up that 33k and not just double up 25k.

One part of HOH that doesnt get a lot of attention is "Q", your position relative to the rest of the field. In this case with the average stack over 100k a Q of .5 indicates a need to be aggressive, and the starting M of about 13 says you have some time, but not much before you start to need to push.In this kind of situation I think its important to not get to deep into it before you decide if youve got the goods to take it all the way or not. If you allow yourself to get dragged along with min (or close to it) raises, you find yourself with half your stack gone and still no clue as to what youre going to do, and thats exactly what happened here.With 3800 as the starting pot a 6k bet gives the BB about 2.4/1 odds, which is plenty for a healthy stack to call with all but the worst hands. If you are playing a hand for its high card value a raise of 3x the blinds + the antes is needed to be fairly sure you are going to get heads up at worst. If you get a call of that bet your caution flag should be waving.Then as it was played, the flop raise gives him better than 2/1 odds, all he needs for a flush draw. If you are going to play the hand thinknig your AJ is good you need to push here. Any bet that is going to make him think twice is going to pot commit you anyway. Since I dont know where the AJ stands, I would have just smooth called the 4k bet and seen what the turn brings. If the larger pre-flop raise were made and called I would be less concerned about the flush here, but as it is I would have folded as well.

[msummers 0]

Thanks for all the feedback.............I agree with all of you who suggested that i made a mistake with the 8000 chip re-raise. I know i should have either pushed or smooth called (I really regret this mistake)If he indeed had a flush draw I gave him great odds to hit it. However, my read on him told me that he didn't have a flush, and was either pushing with a hand like k qs, or a8, k8 or maybe even trips (but in that case i would have been drawing dead)But if I put him on two pair, I definately had a few outs. And i geuss I am just wondering if i should have called to make a move. The chips leaders must have been around 250k, and if I wanted to put myself in a position to make the final table (or to win it all) I think I could have called. Considering I only went up one money level and made an extra 15$ dollers or doing so, it might have been the time to make a move.Also, anyone fold this hand pre flop, not get involved, and wait for a better hand (considering blinds go up every 30 mins)thanks again, msums

[copernicus 0]

Also, anyone fold this hand pre flop, not get involved, and wait for a better hand (considering blinds go up every 30 mins)thanks again, msums

I thought about folding preflop, but if you arent going to play AJs folded to LMP you are going to face blind problems sooner or later.

[mk 11]

Also, anyone fold this hand pre flop, not get involved, and wait for a better hand (considering blinds go up every 30 mins)thanks again, msums

I thought about folding preflop, but if you arent going to play AJs folded to LMP you are going to face blind problems sooner or later.

Something I generally like to do with this type of hand at this stage of a tournament is raise it up more than 3x BB preflop. Something like 4-5x helps define your hand if you get callers. Besides, you're perfectly content to just take the blinds and antes.