party $400 plo8, deep stacks

[Wintermute 0]

Villain is very good, quasi-LAG style (shifts gears & tricky). $400 PL Omaha Hi/Lo Seat 9 is the button Total number of players : 10 Seat 1: Folder ( $116.49 ) Seat 3: Folder ( $427.78 ) Seat 4: Folder ( $633.70 ) Seat 5: Folder ( $392 ) Seat 6: Hero ( $744.51 ) Seat 8: Folder ( $1214.71 ) Seat 9: Villain ( $1437.96 ) Seat 10: Folder ( $155.81 ) Seat 2: Folder ( $179 ) Seat 7: Folder ( $376.52 ) Folder posts small blind [$2]. Folder posts big blind [$4]. Folder posts big blind + dead [$6]. ** Dealing down cards ** Dealt to Hero [ Ah Qh Ks Js ] Folder folds. Folder folds. Folder folds. Hero calls [$4]. Folder folds. Folder checks. Villain raises [$22]. Folder folds. Folder folds. Hero calls [$18]. Folder folds. ** Dealing Flop ** [ Kh, 7s, Tc ] Hero checks. Villain bets [$50]. Hero raises [$203.20]. Villain (thinks for a long time,) calls [$153.20]. ** Dealing Turn ** [ 3h ] Hero ?

[JacKingOff_suit 0]

If Villain had top set on the flop with good low draws (~30% completion rate, good scooping hand) or top set with some wrap draws, he would had raised or potted you right back. He should had raised you back no matter how tricky he's.If he had AA with 2 low cards, I don't think you were far behind and I would gamble with him even we both showed each other's cards on the flop or turn. Now without knowing your hand, you may get him fold by potting the turn to have him believe that his high was no good and he's chasing half of the pot. The problem was if he had middle/bottom set or two pairs with low draws.This shows how difficult it's to play OOP. Flame me, lol.But seriously, when you potted him back on the flop, haven't you already made up your mind to push no matter what the turn card was, even the board paired (to represent your boat, or to make a moderate bet to send a false signal to your opponent that you wanted him to call)?If I had potted him back on the flop, I would definitely push on the turn, after all, what's the probability of him holding A277 or A2TT? Even he's got A277 or A2TT he may still fold sometimes. And even if he wouldn't fold, you still got 18 outs (10 to scoop) out of remaining 45 possible cards.Those were the worst cases. I hope your not playing against some tricky ones with some junk hands like 4689 and tried to steal the blinds by raising with position because of the preflop dead money, then he rivered an 8 to scoop, something like that...Good luck.Edited: by the way, you know that 40 point hands need more money in the pot to make it a worthy investment, right? But, since your a LAG, who cares, it's how you play postflop well that counts, right?

[Wintermute 0]

by the way, you know that 40 point hands need more money in the pot to make it a worthy investment, right? But, since your a LAG, who cares, it's how you play postflop well that counts, right? 40 pt hand? Is that a hutchinson thing? I'm unfamiliar w/ what you're talking about here.

[JacKingOff_suit 0]

by the way, you know that 40 point hands need more money in the pot to make it a worthy investment, right? But, since your a LAG, who cares, it's how you play postflop well that counts, right? 40 pt hand? Is that a hutchinson thing? I'm unfamiliar w/ what you're talking about here.

Something like that, so T, J, Q, or K counts as 10 points, A as 11 points. It's the Nut-peddle players' belief that it takes more players in the pot to make it a worthy play with TJQK, JJKQ, ...

[Wintermute 0]

by the way, you know that 40 point hands need more money in the pot to make it a worthy investment, right? But, since your a LAG, who cares, it's how you play postflop well that counts, right? 40 pt hand? Is that a hutchinson thing? I'm unfamiliar w/ what you're talking about here.

Something like that, so T, J, Q, or K counts as 10 points, A as 11 points. It's the Nut-peddle players' belief that it takes more players in the pot to make it a worthy play with TJQK, JJKQ, ...

Hm, I'd be interested to hear the rationale for this philosophy. Personally, I'll play AKQJds for up to one raise w/ any # of opponents in any position... of course, I have no idea whether that's a particularly good idea. It's just worked for me so far.

[JacKingOff_suit 0]

Hm, I'd be interested to hear the rationale for this philosophy. Personally, I'll play AKQJds for up to one raise w/ any # of opponents in any position... of course, I have no idea whether that's a particularly good idea. It's just worked for me so far.

I know you think Badger's an antique, , so relax this theory is not coming from him (May be he mentioned it too but not I am aware of). It's from Michael Cappelletti, one of the Card Player magazine writers who's always contribute his articles on the subject of Omaha8. He runs a lot of simulations using his computer on O8 hands and comes to the conclusion that a 40-point hand is inferior to any other random hands (you need to dig in his articles) , about 45:55. It's also Lou Kriger (forgive my spelling) and some other experts' belief that 40-point hands require at least some players place money in to an unraised pot to make your participation in the pot a +EV move. If you play 40-point hand HU it's usually a -EV play unless you can outplay your villains.Now tell me what did you do on the turn and why? What were your reasons?Edited: FYI, I just randomly picked a hand .Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled boardscards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EVAs Ks Js Qd 143086 266800 233200 0 0 0 0 0.410Ts 5c 2c 8h 233200 233200 266800 0 270324 0 0 0.590One more thought, could your villain had nothing on the flop or just a little something and tried to outplay you on the turn? Since you said he's tricky and lag...

[Wintermute 0]

I know you think Badger's an antique, , so relax this theory is not coming from him (May be he mentioned it too but not I am aware of). It's from Michael Cappelletti, one of the Card Player magazine writers who's always contribute his articles on the subject of Omaha8. He runs a lot of simulations using his computer on O8 hands and comes to the conclusion that a 40-point hand is inferior to any other random hands (you need to dig in his articles) , about 45:55. It's also Lou Kriger (forgive my spelling) and some other experts' belief that 40-point hands require at least some players place money in to an unraised pot to make your participation in the pot a +EV move. If you play 40-point hand HU it's usually a -EV play unless you can outplay your villains.

Is this O8 general advice, or specifically for limit? Personally I like these hands because in PL they tend to win big pots and lose small ones, since most bad flops are trivial to get away from, and most good ones put you well in front. Hands that have clear delineation between +EV and -EV on the flop are hands I feel I can consistently play well, regardless of opponent's skill.

Now tell me what did you do on the turn and why? What were your reasons?

I'd like to get other folks' opinions first.

[KappaKid83 0]

I am a fairly aggressive PLO8 player so I would bet the pot on the turn, but since my style is not condusive to "by the book" play I am not exactly sure how to go about it from the "most profitable over the long run" stand point.JEFF

[mrdannyg 274]

Hm, I'd be interested to hear the rationale for this philosophy. Personally, I'll play AKQJds for up to one raise w/ any # of opponents in any position... of course, I have no idea whether that's a particularly good idea. It's just worked for me so far.

I know you think Badger's an antique, , so relax this theory is not coming from him (May be he mentioned it too but not I am aware of). It's from Michael Cappelletti, one of the Card Player magazine writers who's always contribute his articles on the subject of Omaha8. He runs a lot of simulations using his computer on O8 hands and comes to the conclusion that a 40-point hand is inferior to any other random hands (you need to dig in his articles) , about 45:55. It's also Lou Kriger (forgive my spelling) and some other experts' belief that 40-point hands require at least some players place money in to an unraised pot to make your participation in the pot a +EV move. If you play 40-point hand HU it's usually a -EV play unless you can outplay your villains.Now tell me what did you do on the turn and why? What were your reasons?Edited: FYI, I just randomly picked a hand .Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled boardscards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EVAs Ks Js Qd 143086 266800 233200 0 0 0 0 0.410Ts 5c 2c 8h 233200 233200 266800 0 270324 0 0 0.590One more thought, could your villain had nothing on the flop or just a little something and tried to outplay you on the turn? Since you said he's tricky and lag...

This seems not very telling since you likely aren't playing against a single opponent. and as soon as another player has a low, your relative EV goes up. for instance, I bet JQKA does better against two random hands if they both contain low possibilities. if i'm wrong about this, please let me know, since i'm trying to learn O8also, hero's hand was double-suited. daniel

[Wintermute 0]

Edited: FYI, I just randomly picked a hand .Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled boardscards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EVAs Ks Js Qd 143086 266800 233200 0 0 0 0 0.410Ts 5c 2c 8h 233200 233200 266800 0 270324 0 0 0.590

Right, but these numbers only matter if all the chips go in preflop. Postflop bettability/foldability will be much higher for AKQJds than four random cards. That is, there are very few flops that catch T528 in a way that you feel comfortable playing a big pot, and there are many that catch the hand in a way that you feel interested in playing on despite being behind, perhaps dominated. AKQJ doesn't suffer that way postflop.

One more thought, could your villain had nothing on the flop or just a little something and tried to outplay you on the turn? Since you said he's tricky and lag...

Definitely--I think this particular player would make this flop call with literally any four cards. However, his PFR means he has some kind of decent holdings--in a heads up, the PFR wouldn't mean that much, but in a full ring, it narrows his range a bit.

[Rocketwadster 0]

I agree with jackingoff (if your lonely - lol), in the 40-point stuff (I checked out the majority of the articles he linked in his post - lots of good reads), and in the seemingly made-up-your-mind part about pushing the flop no matter what (there are some really scary cards, but I don't think the 3 of hearts is one of them). 8)

[JacKingOff_suit 0]

Is this O8 general advice, or specifically for limit? Probability is still probability, and theory is still theory. It won't change because we play pot limit instead of limit.Personally I like these hands because in PL they tend to win big pots and lose small ones, Isn't that what every winning poker player works hard for, winning big pots and losing small ones? In fact, in PLO8, you really should aim to win big pots and lose only small pots for every hand you play. Oh here we go again, weak-tight vs loose aggresive...I'd like to get other folks' opinions first.What opinions do you expect here? Fold preflop, fold on the flop, thank you for the BMW...Look, I am just joking man.Right, but these numbers only matter if all the chips go in preflop. Postflop bettability/foldability will be much higher for AKQJds than four random cards. That is, there are very few flops that catch T528 in a way that you feel comfortable playing a big pot, and there are many that catch the hand in a way that you feel interested in playing on despite being behind, perhaps dominated. AKQJ doesn't suffer that way postflopOk, here's another way to look at it. I forget the numbers, but it's quite frequent that the flop contains two low cards or more, plus the probablity of paired flop, two suited cards which your cards don't have that suitness.... those make the 40-point hands very unplayable. I really think that if we call with 40-pointed hand in a raised pot, without considering our position or how many players have entered the pot, it's not a wise long term investment. (That said, sometimes I would limp with it EP just to bring enough players into the pot, or sometimes you do something stupid so you hope the others will do the same thing....) Also, if you win a big pot with those hands, you are winning from the fish. Last time I remember I shoved and lost to TQKA was on the turn with [[4JQ]5], and I had A245 with the nut flush draw (I was 2 to 1 favorite on the turn and lost to the rivered Ace).Seriously, I won't donate my 40K to a well-known worshiped bastard with great lying skill for a 40-point hand. And I don't have a 40k BR.

[Wintermute 0]

Is this O8 general advice, or specifically for limit? Probability is still probability, and theory is still theory. It won't change because we play pot limit instead of limit.

It definitely matters, because in PL, the amount you pay to see the flop is much smaller in relation to the final pot size than in limit. Hence, playing more speculative hands becomes profitable whereas in limit this is not the case. Limit poker is about discipline, big bet poker requires some imagination.

Also, if you win a big pot with those hands, you are winning from the fish.

This statement is silly, but even if it were true, winning from fish or good players has an equal effect on my bottom line.

Seriously, I won't donate my 40K to a well-known worshiped bastard with great lying skill for a 40-point hand. And I don't have a 40k BR.

Cute. Whoever smasharoo is, this player could not be him.FWIW, I potted the turn, he folded.

[mk 11]

Interesting hand, wintermute. I'm glad you're participating in the forums here.Can we put villain on a range here? There is really no way you're crushed here, and many ways in which you have an edge.Even if villain is ahead on the high and also has an uncounterfeitable low draw (something like AA28), you have about 43% equity. And with your read on the villain, I don't think we have to give credit for anything this solid. You likely have as many as 21ish outs to scoop. You're almost certainly somewhere in the neighborhood of a coinflip, meaning the aggressor will likely take it down on the turn. I would lead out.

[Wintermute 0]

Interesting hand, wintermute. I'm glad you're participating in the forums here.Can we put villain on a range here? There is really no way you're crushed here, and many ways in which you have an edge.Even if villain is ahead on the high and also has an uncounterfeitable low draw (something like AA28), you have about 43% equity. And with your read on the villain, I don't think we have to give credit for anything this solid. You likely have as many as 21ish outs to scoop. You're almost certainly somewhere in the neighborhood of a coinflip, meaning the aggressor will likely take it down on the turn. I would lead out.

I agree, my flop raise created odds for me to shove on nearly any turn. It also sets up some fold equity on the turn, since my opponent will have to give me credit for a wide range of strong hands. I figure him for A2, maybe with a pair. He probably sensed he had no shot at high and was therefore drawing at just half the pot.

[mk 11]

Yeah, against a naked low, you're crushing, like 73/27.

[JacKingOff_suit 0]

It definitely matters, because in PL, the amount you pay to see the flop is much smaller in relation to the final pot size than in limit. Hence, playing more speculative hands becomes profitable whereas in limit this is not the case. Limit poker is about discipline, big bet poker requires some imagination. I agree with every word you said here. But again, AKJQds is still a marginal hand that requires marginal conditions that make it a profitable play. Speaking of speculative hands makes me remember Badger's PLO8 article mentioned that 23xx can be profitable if you play well. Now I gladly throw 23xx away if xx is junk. I play 233x, 223x, 23xx where xx is connected or/and 23xx ds. 233x or 223x deduce the probability of someone holding A23 where I could get 1/4ed.This statement is silly, but even if it were true, winning from fish or good players has an equal effect on my bottom line. I was just trying to say I won't expect to win much with AKJQds from good players, if I do, it will be like a coin-toss.

[TGoldman 0]

I think a better argument against playing "40 point hands" (excluding big pairs) in PLO8 is that it takes a pretty specific flop for your hand to playable post-flop. You could say that the hand has good implied odds, but I've found high-only flops tend to be action killers. When you do get tangled with, it's usually against a hand that matches up okay against yours, such as a similar draw or a set or flush draw. Most of the hands that you are crushing are simply going to fold to a pot bet on the flop.On the subject of pot-limit requiring some "imagination", I've started experimenting raising pre-flop with high only hands. For a small cost of pre-flop equity, this adds a lot of deception. It may cause more aggressive players to peg the pre-flop raiser for low cards and attempt a poorly timed steal if the flop comes all high cards.All this speculation though, why not just play around with some PTO filters for high only hands in raised pots and unraised pots and report if the category is +EV.

[gergery 0]

Villain is very good, quasi-LAG style (shifts gears & tricky).

Easy all-in. If you check, you’ll have odds to call getting almost 2:1 on his bet. If he doesn’t bet, you are unlikely to get paid if you hit.If you bet, he might fold a hand that is getting odds to call.-g