let's look at it analytically

[majorleag 0]

Okay I want to put forth a scenario without talking about Daniel or any specific pro or person and get some genuine intelligent dialog and opinion.There really were two issues at hand when discussing the possibility of someone like Daniel joining your $5 10 table, entertainment value and money making potential.I guess I did not do a good enough job of explaining the way I interperted the situation so I will try once more fresh.If you are looking for entertainment value, then having Daniel or Phil Hellmuth or some other pro join your table and nutbar as it has so affectionately been called, yeah that's great and I would love it too!If you on the other hand want to make money then it would be seriously negative from a money making perspective based upon the following scenario:You join a table at the same time as 8 other people and while there is no maximum buy-in, this is a game you are familar with and play at regularly and do well in, and when you sit down the other 8 also sit down with very similar starting chip stacks within say $1-2K of each other.So using this example you all sit down with about $5k give or take $1 or 2k in either direction.Now you are playing well winning some pots, losing some pots but steadily increasing your chip stack.Then John Smith sits down at the table with $125k. He starts to bully the table and everyone folds to him. Now you assume that he is just a rich moron that can't play, but you get a premium hand say Aces and you raise to $100.00 he re-raises to $500 and you go all in for $4k.Now you do this because you have seen him show some goofy hands like queen, 3 off-suit to steal pots and he laughs, so you are pretty sure he doesn't care about money and doesn't know how to play so if you are patient enough you will trap him. You are almost certain he will call you with any two cards since you have seen him raise to $45k with nothing so you figure if you wait long enough he will certainly call your $4k all-in since he raises to $45k with nothing. This is certainly logical thinking based upon your experience at this table with this guy, isn't it?Well he folds so you take down the pot.Well you made some money, but as it turns out John Smith is a pro player who knows exactly how to play but you just never heard of him. You will never trap this guy, turns out he is just too good!!But if he had never joined your table with a stack that could put you all in each time you could trap a player with a lesser skill set with your Aces. My argument is that you would always make more money in that scenario then having a player of the caliber of a Daniel sit down with 10 to 20 times your stack.You will make much less money best case and go broke worst case having a pro player sit down with 10 to 20 times your stack.Again I am NOT asking you to comment on whether this is good or bad, right or wrong. Just whether or not you want to be in that situation when you have been at a table for hours and if you truly think that you would make more money. Yes you can move, again not the question.It was asked someplace in the 8 page monster thread what's the difference if he sat down with a similar stack?Does that really have to be explained? I would love it if he or someone else sat down at the table with skill and a similar chip stack, as you at least have a fighting chance to make some money. If anyone sits down with a similar stack and then builds it up to 10 or 20 times the average stack, then I say right on more power to them for playing skillfully and or lucky and they deserve the advantage.Why?Because they fought hard to earn the advantage, they didn't just walk in with it.Look none of us if we are ever fortunate enough to sit down at a table with Daniel or someone of his caliber are going to out play him and trap him to make a huge score.The rare circumstance where you might, and I say might would be in a case like the first hand of the main event with Farha and Hudson where they both flop FH's. Even then I would argue that a player of Daniel's skill would not go broke and would find a way to release the hand as painful and difficult as it would be.So I really believe that the people that say hey I would love it if he joined my table and I would make money because I would wait for a hand etc. etc. are either not analyzing this situation properly or are kidding themselves.Again I am saying all of this assuming that 8 people are at a table with very similar stacks and then a new player joins that table with 10 to 20 times the stack of any other player, who also happens to be an excellent poker player, would be in a very negative situation.I do not know what the stacks were when Daniel joined and I am NOT making any assumptions and this post is NOT about that scenario. This is a new scenario and if you respond just look at the new scenario especially what I put in bold and tell me that you would enjoy being in that position.

[GhostfaceKillah 0]

If im not mistaken, usually there is a table maximum you can buy-in for. Correct me if im wrong. I sat with a gentleman who was playing like a maniac and had been doing this all day. The guy had $5400 sitting in front of him and this was at a $1-$2 table. Every flop cost about $70-$80 and if he was pullin magical shlt. Saw him crack aces with a 9-3 after he opened up with $70 preflop UTG.So i waited patiently for my moment and doubled up twice off of him on 2 beautiful sets of Jacks followed by Tens. After that he was afraid of me and would slow down when i was in a hand. By the time he got up and walked away i had roughly $3400 of his money and he looked very sour about it.The point of this story? I have no idea. But you can play like a maniac at my table anyday.

[iveyfan30 0]

i still dont see how having a lunatic at your table pushing with q 3 os is -ev. . after reading dn's post , i dont think the cards he played even mattered to him. this is a+ev situation for anybody at the tabe .how is this even in dispute.? me and 99% of the fcp population would have given their first born to be proplerly bankrolled to be at that table with dn.i see what you are saying, but i respectfully disagree.

[sholden 0]

My argument is that you would always make more money in that scenario then having a player of the caliber of a Daniel sit down with 10 to 20 times your stack.You will make much less money best case and go broke worst case having a pro player sit down with 10 to 20 times your stack.

The "best case" is you get everyone elses chips. The "worst case" is you lose all your chips. (chips includes those they get after busting by reaching into their wallets).Since the rich player brings more chips to the table your best case gets better, and your worst case stays the same. Hence you make more money best case and still go broke worst case.Of course "best case" and "worst case" are stupid, you want to know the probabilities of them happening, and even more you want to know all the in between cases and the probabilities of them happening. You think someone would have come up with a term to describe that, lets make one up - EV sounds good.Having someone sit down with 20x the stack of everyone else and raise everyone else all-in with garbage hands is +EV. Having someone sit down with 20x the stack of everyone else and play better poker is -EV. Whether the player is a pro or not is irrelevant, a pro playing like is a donk is just a donk for that game.

[Ron_Mexico 4,219]

WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY.This thread makes me want to make gay jokes again.This horse is dead, no need to beat it.

[dms26 3]

WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY.This thread makes me want to make gay jokes again.This horse is dead, no need to beat it.

[PotDragon 0]

WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY.This thread makes me want to make gay jokes again.This horse is dead, no need to beat it.

Worse yet...he made a post at 4:30 this morning on that "8 page monster" to say how 8 pages is enough.You were wrong...are wrong...let it go.

[majorleag 0]

would have given their first born to be proplerly bankrolled to be at that table with dn.i

I agree 100%, if I or you were properly bankrolled.In the scenario I outlined you WERE properly bankrolled since you and the other 8 originally sat down with very similar stacks.Once John Smith joins the table with 125k you are no longer properly bankrolled.If John Smith is a rich donkey then yes I want him at my table with 1,000 times my stack as you are correct I will make money.This is NOT the scenario I outlined.A player who is a much more skilled player than you joins your table with 10 to 20 times your stack after you have been properly bankrolled and playing for say 6 hours, how is that going to benefit you financially?

[majorleag 0]

WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY.This thread makes me want to make gay jokes again.This horse is dead, no need to beat it.

Worse yet...he made a post at 4:30 this morning on that "8 page monster" to say how 8 pages is enough.You were wrong...are wrong...let it go.

Not sure what the deal is with the time stamp you refer to but I was asleep at 4:30am. I didn't make any posts until about 8:30 or 9:00am EST.

[majorleag 0]

If im not mistaken, usually there is a table maximum you can buy-in for. Correct me if im wrong.  I have no idea. But you can play like a maniac at my table anyday.

In AC most or all the NL tables have a max buy in but at The Wynn, either there is none or it is very, very high.I agree I want a maniac at my table too, but how does having a player who is much better than you sitting down with 10 to 20 times your stack going to make you money?Are you going to be able to trap the pro, to make a big score?I don't think so, that's why they are pro's because they know when they are beat and when to laydown and they are NOT easily trapped.

[PotDragon 0]

A player who is a much more skilled player than you joins your table with 10 to 20 times your stack after you have been properly bankrolled and playing for say 6 hours, how is that going to benefit you financially?

Since you are jumping through hoops to try and make some point...allow me to shoot you right down.Duhhhhh.... if a "A player who is a much more skilled player than you joins your table" you are always in a -EV situation. Buy in has nothing to do with it.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

8 pages of this simply weren't enough.

[PotDragon 0]

WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY.This thread makes me want to make gay jokes again.This horse is dead, no need to beat it.

Worse yet...he made a post at 4:30 this morning on that "8 page monster" to say how 8 pages is enough.You were wrong...are wrong...let it go.

Not sure what the deal is with the time stamp you refer to but I was asleep at 4:30am. I didn't make any posts until about 8:30 or 9:00am EST.

Fair enough...I live in Pacific time...could be that. Still doesn't negate the fact that you possted on that 8 page monster first thing this morning though, right ?

[majorleag 0]

A player who is a much more skilled player than you joins your table with 10 to 20 times your stack after you have been properly bankrolled and playing for say 6 hours, how is that going to benefit you financially?

Since you are jumping through hoops to try and make some point...allow me to shoot you right down.Duhhhhh.... if a "A player who is a much more skilled player than you joins your table" you are always in a -EV situation. Buy in has nothing to do with it.

Buy in has EVERYTHING to do with it!That was always the whole point, and really it is much more of an issue with the Wynn if they allow no maximum at a $5 10 table then with Daniel.I never, ever argued that it would be great to have a really lousy player buy in for 10 or 20 times what you have at the table. Every player who is decent or thinks they are decent would welcome this.You cannot compare having a pro sit down with that kind of stack, because he will only play like a donkey when he is pretty sure he won't be called meaning that you might very well have a better hand that you will be forced to laydown everytime because of the huge difference in chip stack.Conversely you will NOT be paid off when you have a premium hand, because the pro is much too smart to pay you much or to call your huge raise or all in.

[majorleag 0]

WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY.This thread makes me want to make gay jokes again.This horse is dead, no need to beat it.

Worse yet...he made a post at 4:30 this morning on that "8 page monster" to say how 8 pages is enough.You were wrong...are wrong...let it go.

Not sure what the deal is with the time stamp you refer to but I was asleep at 4:30am. I didn't make any posts until about 8:30 or 9:00am EST.

Fair enough...I live in Pacific time...could be that. Still doesn't negate the fact that you possted on that 8 page monster first thing this morning though, right ?

And your point is what?I did not rehash the original issue in that post, just the fact that people like you either call me and other posters names, worst case or in your case just make subtle negative comments like this one that are not germain to the issue.Did you comment about the negative reactions and bashing of posters on this forum?No.You just made a snide comment that I was posting at 4:30 am, which was incorrect.Again it just establishes my point.The nastiness is so damn pervasive on this site that it really is sickening.I can assure you that you will NEVER ever see me make a negative comment about anybody's post initially going forward.I will defend myself and if all else fails get nasty in return, but only in retaliation, not first.I have seen many of your comments that I did not agree with and in fact found to be rather silly, but I did not and will not make nasty comments just for the sake of doing so.

[PotDragon 0]

You cannot compare having a pro sit down with that kind of stack, because he will only play like a donkey when he is pretty sure he won't be called meaning that you might very well have a better hand that you will be forced to laydown everytime because of the huge difference in chip stack.  Conversely you will NOT be paid off when you have a premium hand, because the pro is much too smart to pay you much or to call your huge raise or all in

Did you even read the "Nutbar" article DN mentioned ? Part of his reasoning is that from the moment he sits down ...he owns the table.The whole point is to NOT raise your premium hands...to limp them and TRAP...to let him bet your hands for you.I will no longer be posting on this topic....but please think about it.

[majorleag 0]

You cannot compare having a pro sit down with that kind of stack, because he will only play like a donkey when he is pretty sure he won't be called meaning that you might very well have a better hand that you will be forced to laydown everytime because of the huge difference in chip stack.  Conversely you will NOT be paid off when you have a premium hand, because the pro is much too smart to pay you much or to call your huge raise or all in

Did you even read the "Nutbar" article DN mentioned ? Part of his reasoning is that from the moment he sits down ...he owns the table.The whole point is to NOT raise your premium hands...to limp them and TRAP...to let him bet your hands for you.I will no longer be posting on this topic....but please think about it.

I have thought about it.So you tell me, you are good enough that when Daniel sits down at your table you will trap him and make money off of him?Well I was not in Card Player so I can readily admit that I am not so naive as to think that I will be able to sit down with Daniel and trap him into paying me $5-10k with a premium hand.But hey then again you were in Card Player, as such you clearly will be able to beat Daniel and trap him.

[Jeepster80125 0]

You cannot compare having a pro sit down with that kind of stack, because he will only play like a donkey when he is pretty sure he won't be called meaning that you might very well have a better hand that you will be forced to laydown everytime because of the huge difference in chip stack.  Conversely you will NOT be paid off when you have a premium hand, because the pro is much too smart to pay you much or to call your huge raise or all in

Did you even read the "Nutbar" article DN mentioned ? Part of his reasoning is that from the moment he sits down ...he owns the table.The whole point is to NOT raise your premium hands...to limp them and TRAP...to let him bet your hands for you.I will no longer be posting on this topic....but please think about it.

Thanks. We appreciate it.

[PotDragon 0]

just the fact that people like you either call me and other posters names

Show me one spot in this thread where I called you any name. Just because I disagree with you ... don't take it personal.Does anyone believe this is not a rehashing of the 8 page monster but disguised ?I said it would be my final post on that topic...but you really need a wake up.

[PotDragon 0]

You cannot compare having a pro sit down with that kind of stack, because he will only play like a donkey when he is pretty sure he won't be called meaning that you might very well have a better hand that you will be forced to laydown everytime because of the huge difference in chip stack.  Conversely you will NOT be paid off when you have a premium hand, because the pro is much too smart to pay you much or to call your huge raise or all in

Did you even read the "Nutbar" article DN mentioned ? Part of his reasoning is that from the moment he sits down ...he owns the table.The whole point is to NOT raise your premium hands...to limp them and TRAP...to let him bet your hands for you.I will no longer be posting on this topic....but please think about it.

Thanks. We appreciate it.

Yeah...I know you are a butt hurt 12 year old jeepster since I reemed you a new one over your stupid avantar. Thats ok...you can GFYS now.

[Nutcracker 0]

join your table and nutbar

he folds

That's about where I stopped reading. Learn the definition of nutbar.I knew I should have stopped when the OP had it set up so that all the players had 500bb and the "pro" had 12500bb on a NL table.

[majorleag 0]

just the fact that people like you either call me and other posters names

Show me one spot in this thread where I called you any name. Just because I disagree with you ... don't take it personal.Does anyone believe this is not a rehashing of the 8 page monster but disguised ?I said it would be my final post on that topic...but you really need a wake up.

You conveniently only quoted part of what I said. I said either call names or make snide remarks like the one you did about me posting at 4:30am.The last post I made on the 8 page monster had nothing to do with the original discussion and was about the nasty way people come down on people.Instead of your making a comment one way or the other about the post, you just comment that I posted.Many people are enraged over an opinion that was posted in good taste and respectfully, but only a small handful are upset at the way "adults" behave in this forum?Seems to me there is something really wrong when an opinion that someone does not agree with pisses them off, but beating the verbal snot out of a poster is perfectly okay.

[PotDragon 0]

So you tell me, you are good enough that when Daniel sits down at your table you will trap him and make money off of him?

Now its back to DN....I thought this was a different topic. :roll: Anyway....as I said yesterday, if I couldn't fade the swings ,I would leave.Save the "card Player" reference ...I said I am in the current issue not was in. Truth hurts don't it.

[PotDragon 0]

Seems to me there is something really wrong when an opinion that someone does not agree with censored them off, but beating the verbal snot out of a poster is perfectly okay.

Which thread are you in now? Sounds like the same BS too me.Anyway, read my response from yesterday. How is it disrespectful ? Was I being rude this morning with the 4:30 comment...maybe. Guess I am just fed up with this BS. That was the point...why do we need another thread about the same topic after the 8 page monster ?

[majorleag 0]

So you tell me, you are good enough that when Daniel sits down at your table you will trap him and make money off of him?

Now its back to DN....I thought this was a different topic. :roll: Anyway....as I said yesterday, if I couldn't fade the swings ,I would leave.Save the "card Player" reference ...I said I am in the current issue not was in. Truth hurts don't it.

LOLTruth hurts?Unlike you who I am not negative towards my fellow posters.I am happy for you and not in the least bit jealous.The Cindy Violette issue? What tourney did you win?I am genuinely interested in the success of others here and not being a wise guy when I ask.