kk first hand

[Spademan 94]

Well, if your SN here starts with a "J", you are at a disadvantage it seems.You are both stupid, literally, sorry. Come get me.

[lifelessimp 0]

The reason i posted this was to see what other people would have done in this situation, the fact that it was only a 10$ tourney is irrelevant i think. for those of u who told me what they would do i thank u, for the other people who act tough hiding behind a nickname well ye are the reason people r getting censored off with this forum

I think this is a huge flaw in thinking on your part. There is a reason small stakes games are different from larger ones. The biggest, most evident thing is that in small stakes games most players are donkeys (we suck.) As such, they are MUCH more apt to go all in with much less than premium holdings. If you play at lower limits much, you can clearly see that people are much looser at low limits. I don't mean brilliant LAG players, i mean loose, call-down with nothing, horrible players. While 3 calls all in normally screams aces, that is the only hand you are behind to, and many players will push all in with weaker holdings. There is a reason that there are a disproportionally large amount of players knocked out in the first 10 min of a $10 buy in tourney vs. a $200 one.

[TobyOrNotToBe 0]

Great fold fishman I mean Spademan

[kouta43 0]

people push with less in a $10 as opposed to $10k buy in. thats why you play your kings differently. Is that idea to complicated for you retards?

[lifelessimp 0]

people push with less in a $10 as opposed to $10k buy in. thats why you play your kings differently. Is that idea to complicated for you retards?

made me laugh for some reason... :-)

[kouta43 0]

that would be because im funny. Oh, unlike others i have actually located my brain and use it.

[rog 0]

This has been debated a bazillion times already, and I dont think we EVER talk about the right things. 40% of the time you quadruple up, and 60% of the time you're out. Wether this is +EV or not is not as simple to figure out as it is in a cash game. quadrupling up increases your chances of getting paid, but you're so far from the money that the math is muddy. Anyone want to take a shot at this using tournament EV instead of pot odds?

[Booyakasha 0]

Hmm - I think this is a fold - you want to risk your entire tourney for a call that may make you a favourite, but not necessarily a clear one - KK loses its value in a multiway pot, because there are LOTS more cards that can beat you. Pro's can lay down big hand like KK and QQ for especially these situations, where the risk is not worth the reward.I think you made the right play. A tough play, but the right one.

[kouta43 0]

the differnece between KK and QQ here is the size of smash's ego. enough said.

[BigPhish 0]

I'd fold. And watch closely what whomever won that hand pushed in with. You're probably going to get all those chips over the course of the tourney.

[WhiteCaesar 0]

you just don't get it. it can be $10 or $10,000. does calling all in with KK on the first hand of the main event of the WSOP make you anything other than stupid when you lose to AA? it's not a question of affording it; it's ALWAYS a question of winning.i expect over many hands to win. i don't need to gamble with KK on the first hand in this situation. call me stupid; i don't care.so, insult all you want. i have seen enough freeroll and low buy in tournaments to know that you can lose with KK on the first hand. i readily concede that most of the time you're pushing in with the best of it; certainly so head to head. but if you've seen the hands people play in these situations, it's easy to wait for a better spot when your odds are NOT decreasing massively based on the amount of players who call.imagine a table where you hold KK, another caller has AQ, another caller has JJ, another caller has 66, and still another caller has 89 of diamonds. your hand can now be beaten by any ace that comes, any J, any 6, any cards to make a straight, or any cards to make a flush. it is no longer anywhere near 80% to win and indeed is much less given the callers.if you know, as you should at the $10 buy in level, that many people will call an all in bet on the first hand, this is an easy laydown.

But doesn't all of that (except the AQ hitting an ace to beat you) still apply even if you're holding aces? That is, with three or four all ins in front, aces are still vulnerable to suckouts by straights, flushes, trips, two pair, etc. -- are you really saying you'd lay down aces in this spot?Now, in answer to the OP's question, I think I'd be pretty likely to make the same laydown you did, but ONLY because I'd think I was up against aces (not because I'd be worried my kings won't play well enough against any number of weaker hands). If I'm reasonably confident I have the best hand in a big low-buy MTT, I'm pushing getting those odds. I fully agree with Spademan that the calculations change in the Main Event at the World Series -- for one thing, the guy in front of you who just called two all ins himself is much more likely to have aces, and for another the stacks are so much deeper and the levels so much longer that you don't have to put your whole tournament on the line on the first hand with such high odds of getting knocked out even if you do have the best hand. Also, in a single-table Sng, I might have to reconsider, since in general I put my odds of getting paid even if I lay that hand down and just play my regular game at slightly above 40% and kings are VERY unlikely to be better than 40% (and obviously could be much worse if someone does turn out to have aces) against so many callers.

[SinPies 0]

Putting aside the $10 buy in

How do you put aside the $10 buy in? That's key.

If you are trying to do well, and be in the tourny when it really counts then yes fold.

If you are trying to do well you should call pre-flop with KK when you're getting amazing odds against what are likely at least a couple random hands. In this spot OP is almost getting the right odds to call if he could see everyone's cards and one of them had AA.I hate all the folding that is advocated in the name of "look for a better spot." This is the spot. Call. All damn day.

[SinPies 0]

I'd fold. And watch closely what whomever won that hand pushed in with. You're probably going to get all those chips over the course of the tourney.

I think folding too much is a common over-correction--like using "whomever" when you should have said "whoever."Sorry, couldn't resist. What are you doing to me FCP?!

[TheMathProf 0]

Also, in a single-table Sng, I might have to reconsider, since in general I put my odds of getting paid even if I lay that hand down and just play my regular game at slightly above 40% and kings are VERY unlikely to be better than 40% (and obviously could be much worse if someone does turn out to have aces) against so many callers.

The difference in my mind is that when you DO survive with your kings, you're more likely to win the tournament and to cash at a higher amount.When you don't call in this hand, the winner will have you outstacked by at least a 3:1 or 4:1 margin. This player may be a weak player, or maybe they had a strong hand that held up, or maybe they just like to mix it up in the first level and play strongly afterwards. You just don't know.But I would think your odds of taking first in the situation where you don't call, if you still only get paid 40% of the time, are nearly negligible.I would call.

[Wingmaster05 0]

ty lifelessimpbtw DB10-2, do your parents make you listen to this every morning after they strap on your helmet :http://yourethebest.ytmnd.com/ ?????teneight

hahah, can someone play this once a month on here? Everytime i fall over laughing. I think last time i didnt have the sound on; it wasnt nearly as good.

[Dubey 1,035]

Anyone have the link to that article by paul philips where he called an all in with two overs and a heart draw? His thoughts on tournament equity are very valid to this argument, and I think DB needs to read them.

[Dubey 1,035]

ok DB10, here are some links for you. Your tournament outlook is rediculously flawed right now, these may help.here is a thread with a similar situation to yours, read Akishore's responses in this thread. He has some very good insight and ideas here:http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...pic.php?t=30638now, incase you are too lazy to go into that thread, here is a link from that thread to a discussion on Paul Phillips Blog about tournament equity and EV in tournaments.Unless 10 dollars is a significant chunk of your bankroll, in which case you shouldn't be playing 10 dollar tournaments, this thread will be very insightful for you.http://extempore.livejournal.com/102173.html

[jeremyb311 0]

Played a 10$ tourney yesterday , 236 entries. First hand I was on the button dealt KK . To make the story shorter there were 3 all ins b4 it even got to me. I folded not wanting to go bust in the first hand.IN the end i would have been knocked out by set 8s and 2 pair As and Qs.What i am asking here is ignoring the fact i would have lost should i have called the all ins and try to get a big chip lead immediately . (the other peson who went all in had k3 but they were suited )

Gutless...its a 10$ tournament, next time run to your couch and scrape up some loose change to hedge against your tournament buy-in. Sometimes your couch free rolls you into tournaments. Invite friends who habitually carry too much change and your couch will do the rest. Spare change in your couch is +EV.

[jeremyb311 0]

Played a 10$ tourney yesterday , 236 entries. First hand I was on the button dealt KK . To make the story shorter there were 3 all ins b4 it even got to me. I folded not wanting to go bust in the first hand.IN the end i would have been knocked out by set 8s and 2 pair As and Qs.What i am asking here is ignoring the fact i would have lost should i have called the all ins and try to get a big chip lead immediately . (the other peson who went all in had k3 but they were suited )

Gutless...its a 10$ tournament, next time run to your couch and scrape up some loose change to hedge against your tournament buy-in. Sometimes your couch free rolls you into tournaments. Invite friends who habitually carry too much change and your couch will do the rest. Spare change in your couch is +EV. :dance:

[BilliardsBoy 0]

Fold.With that many people all-in ahead of you, your hand is a dog to the sum of hands in play. That is to say that while you might be the biggest favorite over the others to win, say 40% or 30%, overall in the hand you have a great chance of getting knocked out. And that's just if you are in fact not going against AA here, which considering the action seems a little hard to swallow.Plus, lets be honest here, a big stack after the first hand in a tourney hardly means anything. Watch the leader board on any online tourney and watch those early giant stacks get knocked out. You would have a better chance than many, but a big stack so early really doesn't guarantee anything.

[SinPies 0]

a big stack after the first hand in a tourney hardly means anything. Watch the leader board on any online tourney and watch those early giant stacks get knocked out. You would have a better chance than many, but a big stack so early really doesn't guarantee anything.

It doesn't guarantee anything, but folding here hardly guarantess you won't spend three hours making big laydowns and then bubble because you never found "the right spot."Much of the time the early big stacks are donks who play too many hands, so you're right that they usually don't get too deep. But if you're a solid player who knows the angles, tripling up on the first hand is definitely +ev.

[jack24bauer24 0]

Uhm.10 dollar tourn it's an auto-call.Take at shot at a huge stack early to take to the final table.First hand of the WSOP ME I lay this down easy.

Ya, easy call for you cuz if a guy did have AA who'd just suckout.

[Loismustdie 0]

Played a 10$ tourney yesterday , 236 entries. First hand I was on the button dealt KK . To make the story shorter there were 3 all ins b4 it even got to me. I folded not wanting to go bust in the first hand.IN the end i would have been knocked out by set 8s and 2 pair As and Qs.What i am asking here is ignoring the fact i would have lost should i have called the all ins and try to get a big chip lead immediately . (the other peson who went all in had k3 but they were suited )

10 dollar tourney its a call, big buy in tourney, I fold- I want to actually play, I don't want to come out racing rigth out of the blocks. However, it's not an easy fold even in a WSOP type setting- I am getting great odds with my stack to possibly triple up and actually do some damage earlier. WSOP setting though I have to think that someone has A-A and it's a very expensive lesson in gambling. 10 dollar tourney? Who cares, another one starts in 22 minutes.

[allinbluff35 0]

TPMMASP

[teneight 1]

TPMMASP

??? what is it with you and not writing your comments out in full sentences?