folding k-k preflop

[Smasharoo 0]

Regardless, I'm sure a lot of pros have laid down KK pre flop, in fact I remember reading about Lederer laying them down, although that was in a tournament. I'm sure you'd have no clue what pros do in NLcash games.I'd say it's nearly impossible they're laying down KK unless the stacks are very very deep./shrug.

[oldirtyharry 0]

To the people advocating that folding KK is OK if you have a good read on a Rock and AA is the only hand they would go all in with, have you ever thought of:1. A smart Rock might know that you have been watching him for the last 10 hours and uses his table image to make this move with a low pocket pair of any 2 face cards hoping that you will fold (and if you call he might have outs and likely to get action later when he does have AA).2. People are completely unpredictable and do things random things completely out of their usual routine for no reason what so ever.

I said you may want to fold with a GREAT read, not a good one. The only players I would consider folding against are the ones that you're fairly certain ONLY push with the nuts. In both of my cases that was the case and I hadn't seen either of them show a bluff after many, many of these plays called. Believe me, I have called dozens of preflop all ins with KK and have lost to AA on numerous occasions. I have absolutely no problem with that. But if Im damn close to certain a player will only push preflop with AA and maybe KK in early position after a raise I will at the least put some thought into folding instead of calling simply because "you're never supposed to fold KK preflop."

[oldirtyharry 0]

Regardless, I'm sure a lot of pros have laid down KK pre flop, in fact I remember reading about Lederer laying them down, although that was in a tournament. I'm sure you'd have no clue what pros do in NLcash games.I'd say it's nearly impossible they're laying down KK unless the stacks are very very deep./shrug.

Maybe your right, maybe not. What I do know is that the caliber of most players pros are playing with are a hell of a lot higher and less predictable then the ones most of us are playing with.

[offset 0]

Lol. iff you're opponent is capable of laying down qq pf then their are times when ytou should fold kk.If he cannot possibly have anything but kk or aa and there and you look down at kk you should fold. thats all i'm saying.

Still exceedingly confused. So what you're saying is, if your opponent can only have AA or KK based on how the hand was played, then you should fold KK. Ummm.....ok, I guess that's the basis of the whole discussion. Obviously we're not folding KK unless we're almost 100% certain that our opponent has AA.You lost me when you talked about him folding QQ. That doesnt make any sense to me.

yes that's basically all i was saying.I was just trying to show that kk is foldable pf (bcuz others were saying the contrary). i don't understand how its confusing. maybe i was accidently speaking spaninsh. Oh well, I can always play poker in Mexico.

[offset 0]

okay look, if you know that your opponent has folded qq pf before, and a similar situation occurs except this time he raises insetad of folds then he has to have kk or AA and you should fold kk. Comprende?

[Smasharoo 0]

Maybe your right, maybe not. What I do know is that the caliber of most players pros are playing with are a hell of a lot higher and less predictable then the ones most of us are playing with.So even less reason to fold KK then?You're a little slow, aren't you?Pros are *marginally* and I do mean *marginally* better than people I play with.Hell, what am I saying, lots of the people I play with *are* proffesional poker players. If you mean tournament pros, I'm a much better cash game player than the vast majority of tournament pros. Just a fact, sorry. I also make more money playing poker in a given year than most of them.Don't mean to shatter your fantasies here, but most tournament "pros" don't do all that well.So unless your definition of "pro" is about 50 people, you're completely fucking cluless.Have any idea what you're talking about before you decide to make a fool out of yourself. If you ever want any credibility again.Alternately, I hear there's a play money SnG starting up soon, so you could jump in on that.good luck.

[Jordan 1]

Maybe your right, maybe not. What I do know is that the caliber of most players pros are playing with are a hell of a lot higher and less predictable then the ones most of us are playing with.So even less reason to fold KK then?You're a little slow, aren't you?Pros are *marginally* and I do mean *marginally* better than people I play with.Hell, what am I saying, lots of the people I play with *are* proffesional poker players. If you mean tournament pros, I'm a much better cash game player than the vast majority of tournament pros. Just a fact, sorry. I also make more money playing poker in a given year than most of them.Don't mean to shatter your fantasies here, but most tournament "pros" don't do all that well.So unless your definition of "pro" is about 50 people, you're completely fucking cluless.Have any idea what you're talking about before you decide to make a fool out of yourself. If you ever want any credibility again.Alternately, I hear there's a play money SnG starting up soon, so you could jump in on that.good luck.

Poor guy. Smash just had to own him I suppose.Thus is life.- Jordan

[Royal_Tour 0]

Yeah, me and Harrington are wrong, you suckers are right.Um, I'll take me and Dan and lay the points for $1000 thanks.Suckers.Learn limit allready.

what are you talking about?. I take it you are referring to HOH and HOH2. cuz if so you will see how harrington actually mentioned decisions like this. and how there are times you can fold KK.Thanks.

[Smasharoo 0]

what are you talking about?. I take it you are referring to HOH and HOH2. cuz if so you will see how harrington actually mentioned decisions like this. and how there are times you can fold KK.Thanks.Try reading the fucking thread and not just my posts hoping for something you can atempt to bask in my reflected glory in you pathetic stalker.I don't mind your big gay crush on me, but posting useless moronic drivel that 4 year olds could deconstruct by sounding out the words of the posts is getting a little old, don't you think?I'm not into stupid vapid guys looking to blow me.You have, apparently, confused me with Senior Mexico.good luck, crackhead. Keep folding KK and outplaying yourself and raking in that extra $300 yearly from NL tournament play to supplement the fryolator income and someday make that downpayment on the new swamp boat.

[princeof56k 0]

To the people advocating that folding KK is OK if you have a good read on a Rock and AA is the only hand they would go all in with, have you ever thought of:1. A smart Rock might know that you have been watching him for the last 10 hours and uses his table image to make this move with a low pocket pair of any 2 face cards hoping that you will fold (and if you call he might have outs and likely to get action later when he does have AA).2. People are completely unpredictable and do things random things completely out of their usual routine for no reason what so ever.

I said you may want to fold with a GREAT read, not a good one. The only players I would consider folding against are the ones that you're fairly certain ONLY push with the nuts.

I understand what your saying, but how great does your read have to be to counter the 2 reasons I mentioned. From a mathematical standpoint, I dont see how a read can be that certain given how unpredictable people can be.

In both of my cases that was the case and I hadn't seen either of them show a bluff after many, many of these plays called. Believe me, I have called dozens of preflop all ins with KK and have lost to AA on numerous occasions. I have absolutely no problem with that. But if Im damn close to certain a player will only push preflop with AA and maybe KK in early position after a raise I will at the least put some thought into folding instead of calling simply because "you're never supposed to fold KK preflop."

I dont doubt that when you have called with KK you have run into AA. But how does that compare to the times you called with KK and had the person completely dominated? I've called Rocks that have pushed all in on numerous occasions when I've had hands AA, KK, or QQ, and I've been shocked sometimes at the stuff they are pushing with considering how they normally play. IMO, the chances of these "Rocks" doing something wild and pushing with inferior hands is significant enough to counter just about any read. Which is why I call all-ins with KK regardless of the player.

[Sojuphan 0]

Folded KK once in my entire life at the 2004 WSOP. UTG raised 4x bb, got a call from my left from a very tight player and was reraised in late position, and then reraised by the tightest player in the world on the button. I folded, guy next to me went all in. Second raiser folded, button called. AA, KK, KK, QQ. I survived only to be bitter later. Other than a situation like that with multiple reraises against tight players, hard to lay down KK preflop.Forgot to mention all four of us had very healthy chip stacks.

[Abbaddabba 0]

There's only one guy that ive ever played that i would fold it to. He's the most passive, predictable player ever. I played with him a few times a week, every week last year. He would not raise kings, and occasionally didnt reraise with aces. In fact, one time i had kings when he had aces, and he just called my raise - to which another guy reraised (and he just called again), and i raised once more for the rest of my stack. He had aces. I asked why he didnt raise at any point, and he said it was because he was scared someone else had aces too. So yeah, im inclined to fold kings against this guy if he makes a substantial raise preflop. I dont think that pro's ever encounter people who are _that bad_ at poker (and predictable) in big cash games, so they're never put in a situation where they'd be able to fold it preflop.With that said, i _havent_ folded KK preflop. The one time i was considering it, i ended up being against aces but spiked my king (even better, it was a three way all in between aces, my kings and ak).

[oldirtyharry 0]

Maybe your right, maybe not. What I do know is that the caliber of most players pros are playing with are a hell of a lot higher and less predictable then the ones most of us are playing with.So even less reason to fold KK then?You're a little slow, aren't you?Pros are *marginally* and I do mean *marginally* better than people I play with.Hell, what am I saying, lots of the people I play with *are* proffesional poker players. If you mean tournament pros, I'm a much better cash game player than the vast majority of tournament pros. Just a fact, sorry. I also make more money playing poker in a given year than most of them.Don't mean to shatter your fantasies here, but most tournament "pros" don't do all that well.So unless your definition of "pro" is about 50 people, you're completely fucking cluless.Have any idea what you're talking about before you decide to make a fool out of yourself. If you ever want any credibility again.Alternately, I hear there's a play money SnG starting up soon, so you could jump in on that.good luck.

lol. If that comment was making a fool out of myself then you are seriously stretching. Like I said, the players I am talking about are a hell of a lot more predictable then the ones pro's are playing with. When they represent AA preflop by going all in and I have numerous hand histories to support this move I may think about laying it down. I've done this twice in about 70,000 hands. Maybe I should have made it clearer that I was referring to the people in the low NL ring games that I play in, not in your games. I'm aware of how much money you make. Everyone here is. My definition of pro is anyone that is making a living of poker, including you. I don't know why you assume I think most tournament "pros" are the ones killing cash games, as that is far from the truth. I made the distinction in my posts between tournament and ring game play for this reason in the first place. Honestly, that post was laughable. You insult my intelligence, then brag about how much $ you make, then insult my poker game. How predictable.

[Royal_Tour 0]

what are you talking about?. I take it you are referring to HOH and HOH2. cuz if so you will see how harrington actually mentioned decisions like this. and how there are times you can fold KK.Thanks.Try reading the censored thread and not just my posts hoping for something you can atempt to bask in my reflected glory in you pathetic stalker.I don't mind your big gay crush on me, but posting useless moronic drivel that 4 year olds could deconstruct by sounding out the words of the posts is getting a little old, don't you think?I'm not into stupid vapid guys looking to blow me.You have, apparently, confused me with Senior Mexico.good luck, crackhead. Keep folding KK and outplaying yourself and raking in that extra $300 yearly from NL tournament play to supplement the fryolator income and someday make that downpayment on the new swamp boat.

I see way too much effort put into this. Its not even funny.. Tisk Tisk, horrible reply. Usually u can get a couple chuckles as we laugh at your dyslexia, but this one is just tasteless.Anyways, yes i did read the thread and noticed ur lame frist reply. See smash, u post those ridiculous comments so fast that you forget you even write them.Good luck not folding KK ever, and runnin into aces for a big pot. sucker.baaaahaahha sucker. now make me a bike u clown

[DCWildcat 0]

...there are bigger leaks to fix...

[ShieldWolf 0]

Yeah, me and Harrington are wrong, you suckers are right.Um, I'll take me and Dan and lay the points for $1000 thanks.Suckers.Learn limit allready.

...which is why I asked for situations in No-Limit games. Obviously, in any fixed limit game, even a preflop round that is capped before it gets to you will be called when you hold KK.If someone is a player in strictly limit cash games, this subject is of no relevance to them. However, for people who play any kind of No-limit holdem games, they have certainly found themselves in a preflop situation where they've held KK and had to decide if someone who pushed all-in was holding onto Aces.The purpose of starting this thread was simply to see if people had some interesting stories where they found themselves in that kind of situation, had to make a decision, made it, and the result.

[SavageHenry 0]

i had my first chance to fold KK against what i read to be AA(the villian in question had been playin super super tight) the other night in a 10+1. i wussed out and still called. He turned over AA and it held up. Oh welll at least my read was right.