the poker hall of fame

[digitalmonkey 929]

Check out the Poker hall of Fame. Who's missing that you think should definitely be there? Do you think Daniel meets the criteria already or does he need a few more successful years under his belt?Should Phil Hellmuth Jr. be there?T.J. Cloutier?I think Mike Caro and David Sklansky should be included under a builders category. Their influence on the game is enormous.Discuss...

[KDawgCometh 2]

TJ Cloutier should definetly make it at some point. Daniel probably needs another five or six years at his current pace to merit talk. He's only 30 so he has plenty of time. Daniel very well could be one of the few from this new generation to merit hall talk. Phil Ivey needs to do more tournies and winning to merit that type of talk. The poker hall might very well be the hardest hall to get into, so to even be talked about is an honor. Now the reason I didn't mention Hellmuth is because he is a holdem specialist and to merit the hall you need to be great at all forms of poker along with cash game and tourny sucess. If your gonna argue for hellmuth based on bracelets then we must argue for Billy baxter, who you say. well Billy Baxter has 7 bracelets all in lowball and no one mentions him being great because eveeryting he's won is in lowball, and not something big like holdem

[digitalmonkey 929]

TJ Cloutier should definetly make it at some point. Daniel probably needs another five or six years at his current pace to merit talk. He's only 30 so he has plenty of time. Daniel very well could be one of the few from this new generation to merit hall talk. Phil Ivey needs to do more tournies and winning to merit that type of talk. The poker hall might very well be the hardest hall to get into, so to even be talked about is an honor. Now the reason I didn't mention Hellmuth is because he is a holdem specialist and to merit the hall you need to be great at all forms of poker along with cash game and tourny sucess. If your gonna argue for hellmuth based on bracelets then we must argue for Billy baxter, who you say. well Billy Baxter has 7 bracelets all in lowball and no one mentions him being great because eveeryting he's won is in lowball, and not something big like holdem

Very nice points! "..another five or six years" for Daniel though? Do you think he needs that many? His current pace is unbelievable...I don't know if anyone could ever keep that up.

[Red 0]

Someone should have told Chip Reese he needed more tournament success before they let him in, too. I'd let T.J. in under the Don Sutton clause.

[KDawgCometh 2]

another five or six years" for Daniel though? Do you think he needs that many? His current pace is unbelievable...I don't know if anyone could ever keep that up

well really its a situation that everything is gonna be magnified becuase of all of the attention to poker right now. The pace he is on deosn't necessarily mean that he has to win BAPAs all the time, but win several majors a year, this includes WSOP bracelets. There is so much more availibility of major buy in tournies that you aren't gonna get 85% of the heavies in one tourny except for the WPT championship or the Main Event. it should also be noted that he is only 30 and chip was and still is the youngest inducted when he made it in at 40, I think that Daniel can break that, but not in the next couple of years. He neds around a decade at the highest and that really started for him in 98/99.

Someone should have told Chip Reese he needed more tournament success before they let him in, too.

where did I say that Chip didn't deserve to be in because he hasn't done that many tournies, I didn't. He has two WSOP bracelets to his name. Plus his cash game success is second to none as he has won more in cash games than anyone in history over his lifetime. He is somewhere around $75 million I think, and this is just from cash games. That number screams for attention. A player like Barry Greenstein will take longer just because he is primarily a cash game player. The rules state that you have to be able to do it all over a long period of time

[Guest XXEddie]

Someone should have told Chip Reese he needed more tournament success before they let him in, too. I'd let T.J. in under the Don Sutton clause.

Reese I think belongs there, but shouldnt have be inducted when he was. TJ, phil, daniel all im sure will make it. they just need time

[Pokerghost2 0]

The poker hall of fame, and its criteria might be alittle different than some of u might think. How much tournament success did wild bill hickock have? He is indeed a charter member, i suppose for the famous dead mans hand. I think its criteria are more like the mark u left on poker and vegas socially or succesfully. some of the old timers inducted were broke more than they were bathed and yet they made it in. Hellmuth cloutier and one day negreanu r stone cold locks. Bet ur last penny on it.

[TheIceman05 0]

Question:Of all players not in the Hall of Fame now, which five deserve it most? Ice

[KDawgCometh 2]

I think that TJ is right at the top of the deserving listJack Binion-he has done sooo much just like his fatherJohn Bonetti-he jumped into the pro world 20 years ago at 56 and has stayed at the top sinceDavid Sklansky-has anyone done more for poker than him that's not already n the hall, not to mention he kills the 300/600 game that he normally plays inand a posthmous nod for Jim Albrecht- he was the oice of poker for a long time and he helped run many tournaments that are now bigI just don't feel that hellmuth because he specializes in one form pf poker deserves to be in the hall in the near future

[Vade 0]

Barry Greenstein deserves consideration for donating over2 million to charity in tournament winnings.My 5 (no particular order)CaroGreensteinSklanskyCloutierand the pick for the most controversyHellmuthWhy? Youngest WSOP winner ever, 9 bracelets, huge contribution to the game outside of actually playing.

[KingAustin 0]

Youngest WSOP winner ever,

Youngest Main Event* WSOP winner

[Vade 0]

I of course meant that, lol

[digitalmonkey 929]

Gabe KaplanToby MaguireBen Affleckin the celebrity wing! LOL!Seriously though....how about Jennifer Harman?

[TheIceman05 0]

Seriously though....how about Jennifer Harman?

Seriously, though.... why?Iceman

[KDawgCometh 2]

Seriously though....how about Jennifer Harman?

She needs to be doing what she's doing for another 10 to 15 years. Remember this hall is based on longevity. Chip Reese was elected at the age of 40 and he had been in Vegas for almost 20 years by that point

[digitalmonkey 929]

Question:Of all players not in the Hall of Fame now, which five deserve it most?  Ice

Mike CaroDavid SklanskyT.J. CloutierMen "The Master" NguyenPhil Hellmuth

[Red 0]

where did I say that Chip didn't deserve to be in because he hasn't done that many tournies, I didn't.

I didn't say you said that, did I? It's called an observational comment based on the jist of your post questioning Ivey's qualifications while allowing Daniel's. Granted they are both almost locks eventually. My point is their successes are fairily even. If Ivey wanted to concentrate on the tourney side he would excel. He has in the past when so inclined. If Daniel focused solely on cash games he would be doing well in them, I'm sure. BTW I agree with you about Hellmuth. I wouldn't put him in. Unfortunately, the vast (uneducated) majority seem to think he has done a lot for poker. I don't see it. In fact, I'd contend he's gotten a lot more from poker than he's given back. What has he done of an altruistic nature? Provide personal poker lessons for $25,000 a session? RedP.S. Where do you get your info about Chip having won the most money (cash game wise) in history during his lifetime? I think Doyle may have won as much or more. Personally I don't know, all I've heard are the same internet rumors you probably have.

[digitalmonkey 929]

BTW I agree with you about Hellmuth.  I wouldn't put him in.  Unfortunately, the vast (uneducated) majority seem to think he has done a lot for poker.  I don't see it.  In fact, I'd contend he's gotten a lot more from poker than he's given back.  What has he done of an altruistic nature?  Provide personal poker lessons for $25,000 a session?  

Phil is a big worm - he's brought a lot of new fish to the game.

[Vade 0]

Not just talking about alturistism for Phil, though he does do things here in Madison with young players.He's written several well selling books, was the first champion to be seen on TV selling stuff (I think), and definitely has brought a lot of new players into the game, through his style of annoying everyone in site.On top of his poker accomplishments, I think that's enough.

[TheIceman05 0]

P.S. Where do you get your info about Chip having won the most money (cash game wise) in history during his lifetime? I think Doyle may have won as much or more. Personally I don't know' date=' all I've heard are the same internet rumors you probably have.[/quote']There's no reliable data that I'm aware of, but the consensus (among those involved) is that Chip Reese is a) probably the best stud player of all timeB) probably the winningest cash-player of all timeUnlike Doyle, Cloutier, and the rest of the old guard, he found tournament poker to be a foolish waste of his money-making time. Even though he had some success, he was always much more focused on his ring-gameIce

[TheIceman05 0]

Not just talking about alturistism for Phil, though he does do things here in Madison with young players.He's written several well selling books, was the first champion to be seen on TV selling stuff (I think), and definitely has brought a lot of new players into the game, through his style of annoying everyone in site.On top of his poker accomplishments, I think that's enough.

God, he sucks SO MUCH, but he absolutely deserves to be in the hall of fame, sooner or later. Consider the following:1) No one's won more bracelets than he has, and it's not like he was playing in the 70s when the games were smaller, or has any bracelets in games that would normally draw small fields (Triple Draw, Razz, 5 stud, Chinese Poker). They were ALL in Hold'em. Might even be all NL.2) He absolutely changed how top-flight players played against weaker players. He was the first guy to "string people along" with undersized bets, seeing lots of flops, and trusting himself to make good laydowns. In a way, he was Daniel Negreanu and Phil Ivey long before they were.3) EVERYONE on Earth knows who he is. I know, I know, but it's still true. He was the first card-player to really market himself. Love him or hate him (hate him) one could argue he's personally responsible for the current level of poker-loving in the countryIceman

[KDawgCometh 2]

P.S. Where do you get your info about Chip having won the most money (cash game wise) in history during his lifetime? I think Doyle may have won as much or more. Personally I don't know, all I've heard are the same internet rumors you probably have.

It was confirmed in an article in people magazine like around 18 months ago. They had stated that he had made around $75 million from poker alone, and since people is a national magazine that sum has to be confirmed before its printed. The reason that Ivey would have to take a little longer if he focuses soley on cash games is that intodays poker world tournies pay a massive amount more than when Chip was Ivey's age. Tournaments up until the mid 90s were just a place for the players that weren't good enough to consistently win at high levels in the cah world would go. Chip also was in Vegas for almost 20 years before he was placed in the Hall of Fame, he might've gotten there sooner if he had won a Main Event becuase that at least had prestige from the high limit cash game players

[Red 0]

... and definitely has brought a lot of new players into the game, through his style of annoying everyone in site.

Agreed, and for that I am grateful. IMO the other things you mention are merely by products of being a complete j-rkoff moron at the table. I'm just not sure that qualifies one for the hall. Maybe if you said he deserves it for the sheer entertainment factor he's provided over the last couple years when taking what he considers to be bad beats I'd be closer to getting on board. Most pros try and avoid revealing their true opinions of Hellmuth as it would not be productive. What they will say though is not particularly flattering. It's common knowledge he has a very hard time beating cash games of any significance. Do a search of the forum on the topic and if Daniel hasn't posted on this topic, post the question to him. I know he's not as reluctant as some to open up. Is Hellmuth better than I am? Of course he is, then again I'm not up for hall discussion at this time .Later, Red

[TheIceman05 0]

... and definitely has brought a lot of new players into the game, through his style of annoying everyone in site.

Agreed, and for that I am grateful. IMO the other things you mention are merely by products of being a complete j-rkoff moron at the table. I'm just not sure that qualifies one for the hall. Maybe if you said he deserves it for the sheer entertainment factor he's provided over the last couple years when taking what he considers to be bad beats I'd be closer to getting on board. Most pros try and avoid revealing their true opinions of Hellmuth as it would not be productive. What they will say though is not particularly flattering. It's common knowledge he has a very hard time beating cash games of any significance. Do a search of the forum on the topic and if Daniel hasn't posted on this topic, post the question to him. I know he's not as reluctant as some to open up. Is Hellmuth better than I am? Of course he is, then again I'm not up for hall discussion at this time .Later, Red

Read what Paul Phillips has to say about him.Or, go to www.barrygreenstein.com and see what BARRY has to say about him. It's awesome. Iceman

[Red 0]

Yeah, I've read all the reviews at Barry's site. Top notch. Daniel picked up on a good idea there. It would be nice to see more pros opinions of each other. As for Paul, I read his live journal regularly. He makes a number of interesting/very funny comments on the topic of Phil H.Red