i just learned 4/2 rule 4 quik pot odd calculation

[tyf70 0]

The 4/2 rule is a quick way of calculating odds for draws. ... To use the 4/2 rule in holdem multiply your "outs" by 4 if you have two cards to come (both the turn card and river card). Multiply your outs by 2 if you only have one card to come.For example, I have A4 and the flop is K - 3 - 2. I assume my opponent has a King and if I catch a 5 or an Ace, I will win. I have 7 outs (3 aces and 4 fives). If I want to draw till the river, my chance of hitting and winning is 7 x 4 = 28%. If I only want to draw for one card, it is 14%; I then use that information to decide whether I should call for my draw. If I get enough in return, I'll draw.  

http://www.learn-texas-holdem.com/question...ule-and-KTs.htmI tried it with 7 , 10, and 12 outs, the results were very close to the actual ones. It's pretty cool, isn't it?Previously if I want to calculate what's the odd for drawing a flush with two cards to come, then it will be,1 - 38/47 * 37/46 = !%@^#$* ...

[Ramocita 0]

http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...2739&highlight=Yes.. this is an easy way .....

[scottrude 0]

Here's what I do, it's probably the same but I didn't really take the time to check it.Here's how I see it there are 52 cards in the deck. That means each card represents fractionally less than 2% of the deck each. So I take my outs lets say 9 (flush draw). So I take 9times 2 = 18 times the number of cards to come lets say two. So I have about 36%. Its not exact but it's real close and close enough for pot odds ect. Handy for the really wild draws etc.

[ANJBerg 0]

I am fairly new to poker, but I consider myself a student of the game. I am not real solid with math, but this rule is one that is both new to me and one that may be able to help me in deciding to call or bet at pots. Before using this new rule, I was wondering if some of you would offer your opinion on a question I have.1. Using this rule, a flush draw would offer 36% chance after the flop, and 18% chance after the turn. What is a high enough percentage to:a. Call a bet after the flopb. Call a bet after the turnc. Bet out after the flopd. Bet out after the turnThanks for your help, and I look forward to reading your responses.

[Smasharoo 0]

1. Using this rule, a flush draw would offer 36% chance after the flop, and 18% chance after the turn. What is a high enough percentage to:a. Call a bet after the flopb. Call a bet after the turnc. Bet out after the flopd. Bet out after the turnThanks for your help, and I look forward to reading your responses.Depends on the pot size, obviously.In a 50 bet pot you'd be pretty daft not to call 1 bet with a 36% chance of winning. In a 0 bet pot you'd be pretty daft not to fold to 1 bet with a 36% chance of winning.

[JFarrell20 1]

Lou Krieger wrote a concise article about thisAfter the turn cards, multiply your outs by 2 and add 2. If you have 9 outs for the nut flush, you'll hit it 20% of the time.On the flop it goes like this1-8 outs: multiply by 4.9-12 outs: multiply by 4 and subtract 1.13-16 outs: multiply by 4 and subtract by 4.In other words:6 outs yields a win 24% of the time10 outs yields a win 39% of the time15 outs yields a win 56% of the timeThese %'s are within 1%.He states that if you have 14 outs or more, you should call any bet.

[Aburame Shino 0]

I use the 4/2 method. It works very well, although sometimes I get annoyed by calculating odds every hand and throw strategy out the window. =P

[Rob-L 0]

I am fairly new to poker, but I consider myself a student of the game.  I am not real solid with math, but this rule is one that is both new to me and one that may be able to help me in deciding to call or bet at pots.  Before using this new rule, I was wondering if some of you would offer your opinion on a question I have.1. Using this rule, a flush draw would offer 36% chance after the flop, and 18% chance after the turn.  What is a high enough percentage to:a. Call a bet after the flopb. Call a bet after the turnc. Bet out after the flopd. Bet out after the turnThanks for your help, and I look forward to reading your responses.

You're only doing half the work. You're getting the percentage sure, put what is the pot offering? That is what helps you decide whether to call, etc.Personally, I like sticking to the odds. If I am approx. 4:1 (20%) for making my flush with one card to come, and it costs me $25 to call into a $100 pot, then I am even money, because the pot to my call ratio is 4:1. If I have to call $25 into a $75 pot, I'm only getting 3:1 - so I fold.Think about it this way. If you have a six sided dice, and you and I pick three numbers each, we each have a 50-50% chance of winning if one of our numbers comes up. So I'd put of 10 dollars and you'd put up $10. Even money because we are both 50-50 to win.But let's say I tell you., "You take numbers 1-5 and I'll take number six. You put up $10 and I'll put up $2. So is that good for you?Well, out of 6 outcomes, you can win 5 ways and I can win one way. 5:1So for arguements sake, let's say we roll the dice six times and all numbers come up one time. So, for you - you won 5 times and I gave you $2 each time, you got $10 off of me. I won once, and you gave me $10 - so we're even. Our wager was "fair" to both of us because we were giving each other the proper odds.But what if I changed it? What if I said "You get numbers 1-5" but you have to put up $12 to my $2??Now when you win your five times, you get $10 off of me, but when I get my number I get $12 off of you. So - over the long haul you'll be losing to me. You may be dragging more pots, so to speak, but I'll still be ahead if we play long enough.Same thing with poker. You may have a 36% chance of making that flush, but if the pot isn't offering you enough, you will be losing in that same situation in the long run. With two cards left to come, you are about 2:1 to make your flush - but if you have to put $100 into a $150 pot, guess what? Even when you win, you lose. That pot needs to be $200 before you are mathmatically correct to make the call.Notice I said mathmatically. This doesn't account for reads on your opponent or tells or any other info you have. But, I always start with the math and then let my decisions go from there.

[MrConceit 0]

Very good post Rob. To all of you others, I do think it's easier to memorize pot odds ratios than percents if you don't already have this stuff down anyway.Know your basic ones.(roughly, rounded to whole numbers)Flush (9 outs) 4:1OE Straight or double gutshot (8 outs) 5:1Two overcards (6 outs) 7:1Gutshot (4 outs) 11:1Basically just look at a chart for the odds (not percents) of hitting various numbers of outs. If you know odds not percents it's child's play to see if you have pot odds. And if it's child's play you can more quickly calc to see if you have stuff like implied odds. So you can perhaps call on a gutshot closing the action (note I say CLOSING THE ACTION!) with 8 or 9:1 on the flop because of implied odds. Also, be careful of assuming you always have clean outs for things like overcards. Very very often someone has something like A8 of spades vs your AK and the flop might be T83. So here obviously you'd be drawing to 3 outs (assuming someone else doesn't have KT ) In other words be careful with your overcard "draws".Oh I should give one example for if you've memorized stuff like the above.You have an open ended straight draw, 8 outs, so 5:1. We'll say you're playing 1/2 and this is the flop. So someone bets 1 dollar into you. The pot (INCLUDING their bet) needs to be at least 5 dollars for you to call 1.

[JFarrell20 1]

Know your basic ones.(roughly, rounded to whole numbers)Flush (9 outs) 4:1Oh I should give one example for if you've memorized stuff like the above.You have an open ended straight draw, 8 outs, so 5:1.  We'll say you're playing 1/2 and this is the flop.  So someone bets 1 dollar into you.  The pot (INCLUDING their bet) needs to be at least 5 dollars for you to call 1.

You need to clarify this stuff. A four-flush with 9 outs is only 4:1 after the turn. On the flop it's 35% to win, or slightly better than 2:1 odds against. An open-ender is about 32% to win after the flop. It is slightly less than 20% to win after the turn (about 18.5). Odds against making your hand are 2:1 on flop, and slightly more than 4:1 after turn card. Pot should be $10 for you to call $2 after turn, but after flop, it only has to be $3 for you to call $1 (and it's not heads-up action.. in other words, make sure 2 or more people are involved in the hand.)

[MrConceit 0]

Know your basic ones.(roughly, rounded to whole numbers)Flush (9 outs) 4:1Oh I should give one example for if you've memorized stuff like the above.You have an open ended straight draw, 8 outs, so 5:1. We'll say you're playing 1/2 and this is the flop. So someone bets 1 dollar into you. The pot (INCLUDING their bet) needs to be at least 5 dollars for you to call 1.

You need to clarify this stuff. A four-flush with 9 outs is only 4:1 after the turn. On the flop it's 35% to win, or slightly better than 2:1 odds against. An open-ender is about 32% to win after the flop. It is slightly less than 20% to win after the turn (about 18.5). Odds against making your hand are 2:1 on flop, and slightly more than 4:1 after turn card. Pot should be $10 for you to call $2 after turn, but after flop, it only has to be $3 for you to call $1 (and it's not heads-up action.. in other words, make sure 2 or more people are involved in the hand.)

On the contrary, I don't have to clarify anything. I know all the odds for making by river, and I think it's HORRIBLE to teach novices this way. You should always be figuring pot odds for the next card (just about). Bet odds is when you should be considering completion over two cards. RE: for when you want to bet or raise your draws for value. A 4-flush is still 4.1:1 against on the flop to make by turn. Figuring pot odds over two cards (unless you're going to be allin) is not a wise plan in my experience. For it to be completely valid you HAVE to call turn to have it have been correct. Do you always call turn after you call flop? If so you can use the 2-card completion odds. And yeah, for a flush you just about always will be. But I think it's a very sloppy way to figure.To me it is akin to calling with barely (or just below) pot odds when you strongly suspect it will be raised after you. Then when it's back to you, you're like "Well of course now a call is correct!". But was it correct to call 2 bets on that betting round compared to what was in the pot? Sure you don't always KNOW it will be raised after you, but you often suspect it likely will be, and this turns a close call into an easy fold.Btw, maybe THAT's how people call pot sized bets in NL on the flop on a flush draw. They're getting 2:1 on their call and that's what a flush will hit if it goes to river! Sad for them, when they miss 4/5ths of the time I bet again on the turn. Or perhaps they're saying IMPLIED ODDS to themselves. Sorry, but I don't call an allin when a flush hits on turn or river. I never understood how they could make such bad calls but now I understand their (flawed) reasoning.[Edit]Btw let's look at your example. Limit hold'em - 1/23-handed to the flop. You flop an open ended straight draw. You're BB and SB bets out into you. You need to call 1 into a 4 dollar pot. You do so, so does the limper (good thing he didn't raise). Now the pot is 6 dollars going into the turn. You miss. SB bets again (2 dollars), you have to call 2 dollars into an 8 dollar pot. Not sufficient pot odds, you fold. And your flop call was contingent upon a turn call to have been correct. You just lost money (by your play, not because you missed your draw). My point here, (I suppose) is one problem with doing it by 2-card completion odds is that you typically won't have enough pot odds on the turn anyway to make a call there, which totally invalidates figuring by that system.Your example was 3 dollars to call 1, my example (as to not be HU) was 3handed and I could only come up with you calling 4 dollars instead of your example 3. 4 is actually doable because of implied odds sometimes, but my point is this reasoning can lead you to expensive errors over time. You could come up with a 3:1 call based on raises and that would be much more dicy than my example. In the example I gave, a call on the turn is still doable if the limper is really passive and won't be raising (and will still be calling the turn). I'm just trying to show the potential problems.In truth straight and flush draws are so strong you _will_ be calling them to the river almost always. But I still say it's a bad habit to do all of your figuring in terms of 2 cards to come.

[JFarrell20 1]

Good point. All I was saying was that I think your odds were a little unclear as to if they were on the flop or the turn (i don't recall now)..You are correct though when you say you will have to call a minimum of 1.5 BB's on the flop to chase to the river. I know that.

[MrConceit 0]

Good point. All I was saying was that I think your odds were a little unclear as to if they were on the flop or the turn (i don't recall now)..You are correct though when you say you will have to call a minimum of 1.5 BB's on the flop to chase to the river. I know that.

I dunno why I wrote so lengthily and vehemently. Sorry.Though I do think it's best to teach new people to figure pot odds one card at a time, not two.