building pots pre-flop and value betting the river

[wrto4556 0]

This was posted in the strategy section but i'm getting no comments.I was looking at my Aggression factor the other day, and it is suprisingly low. I wonder if it is from the lack of recorded hands...but I can't help to wonder. My pre-flop raise percent is 7.15% (could be higher)...and my pre-flop aggression factor is an insulting 0.54! On the flop it's 2.89, the turn it's 2.39, and on the river it's 1.14. Theses stats lead me to believe I should start raising hands like KTs after 4+ people limp in; or QJs, and JTs...all good drawing hands, all fairly strong. I think I should try to build up more pots. Maybe even raise 98s after 6+ players limp. Is this a correct assumtion? Also, I feel like I value bet the river quite often...even when it feels uncomfortable...but 1.14 seems low. Am I missing out on too many bets on the river? FYI, this is a record of only 4,000 hands. With 12,000 hands recored at pokerstars at the $1/$2 limits my aggression stats looked almost the same. Preflop raise percent is 8.89% Aggression factor: pre-flop=0.69 flop=3.66 turn=3.00 river=1.65 My aggression on the flop and turn looks good, but I seem passive pre-flop and on the river...Opinions please.

[Mattnxtc 0]

what are you using to get those stats?Also...Though i dont have something keeping stats i bet my numbers would be about the same... I find that esspecially on stars Unless I have Aces or Kings I dont like to reraise a raiser

[wrto4556 0]

what are you using to get those stats?Also...Though i dont have something keeping stats i bet my numbers would be about the same... I find that esspecially on stars Unless I have Aces or Kings I dont like to reraise a raiser

Im using pokertracker.I talked to some folks at the pokertracker forum and my river bet was actually really strong. And the pre-flop he said he never worries about because it all depends on whay type of table you're playing.I'll re-raise tens and against loose raisers. i'll re-raise nines if I can get him heads up, or even AQs. 3 betting can be good for you. I just hate calling the raises....cause i'm no longer the aggressor. All day long I raise and get cold calls from all sorts of fish, and then when I cold call...I think..."fish". lol.

[DiverDown4 0]

Hey Wrto, I just purchased pokertracker, I love it. After how many hands, would you say, will my statistics be accurate. How many hands should i play to have a good idea of my BB/Hr, agression statistics and so forth? Any idea. I've only got 200 hands in pokertracker right now and my aggression post flop is 6.76! lol......Do you think 10,000 hands is a good minimum to be fairly accurate?

[justblaze 0]

10k hands minimum, yes. I would start popping 98s 10js and qjs with 5 limpers. K10s not so much.

[wrto4556 0]

10k hands minimum, yes. I would start popping 98s 10js and qjs with 5 limpers. K10s not so much.

Cool. Exactly what I wanted to hear...and ATs.

[wrto4556 0]

Hey Wrto, I just purchased pokertracker, I love it. After how many hands, would you say, will my statistics be accurate. How many hands should i play to have a good idea of my BB/Hr, agression statistics and so forth? Any idea. I've only got 200 hands in pokertracker right now and my aggression post flop is 6.76! lol......Do you think 10,000 hands is a good minimum to be fairly accurate?

10k is a minimum...and a minimum is what it is. I say around 50k-100k will you have really accurate stats. Like, what hands make you the most money...and from where. All the nitty gritty stuff shows up at 100k...or so I hear. But as for win rate and aggression, 10k should give you a good idea of what it is.

[DiverDown4 0]

Thanks, also, do you use the auto rate players option? im not exactly sure what thats all about yet. I havent had much time to go over the program but from what i see so far its great.

[KramitDaToad 0]

10k hands minimum, yes. I would start popping 98s 10js and qjs with 5 limpers. K10s not so much.

Cool. Exactly what I wanted to hear...and ATs.

Not too sure if its going to improve your bottom line though.Sure your aggression numbers will go up, but I think the all important BB/100 will go down.At 1/2 it goes to showdown so often with that many limpers (thats the best thing about the fish), so being over aggressive with drawing hands won't have a good returnSure, if your playing 10/20 it would be more effective, but I think it's gonna hit brick walls with the fisheeees.PS If your VP$IP is less than 20% those stats would probably have you as an 'eagle' using the default rules - which is right where you want to be.

[mx957 0]

WRTO,This couldn't have come at a better time. I was reviewing my stats last night and wondering how I could get my post flop aggression rating up from passive to aggressive. My numbers are very inline with yours and was going to start researching what I was missing out on....I'll try you're suggestions....Thanks for the information. I just started using PokerTracker last week and only have about 800 hands in....

[poker_bull 0]

10k hands minimum, yes. I would start popping 98s 10js and qjs with 5 limpers. K10s not so much.

Out of curiosity, why not K10s? It seems like a solid hand, but I guess my mentality is not all that accurate.When people talk about 300BB, what does that mean?

[justblaze 0]

10k hands minimum, yes. I would start popping 98s 10js and qjs with 5 limpers. K10s not so much.

Cool. Exactly what I wanted to hear...and ATs.

Not too sure if its going to improve your bottom line though.Sure your aggression numbers will go up, but I think the all important BB/100 will go down.At 1/2 it goes to showdown so often with that many limpers (thats the best thing about the fish), so being over aggressive with drawing hands won't have a good returnSure, if your playing 10/20 it would be more effective, but I think it's gonna hit brick walls with the fisheeees.PS If your VP$IP is less than 20% those stats would probably have you as an 'eagle' using the default rules - which is right where you want to be.

actually this advice is SPECIFICALLY for low limit no foldem holdem. it wont work nearly as well in a mid limit game, primarily because you will never get 5 limpers. the whole point is that #1 these cards have surprisingly good equity in a 6 way pot, and #2 you juice the pot preflop so you can justify a chase to the turn and #3 it will confuse the hell out of low limit players when you show down these types of hands after popping it preflop.

[wrto4556 0]

10k hands minimum, yes. I would start popping 98s 10js and qjs with 5 limpers. K10s not so much.

Cool. Exactly what I wanted to hear...and ATs.

Not too sure if its going to improve your bottom line though.Sure your aggression numbers will go up, but I think the all important BB/100 will go down.At 1/2 it goes to showdown so often with that many limpers (thats the best thing about the fish), so being over aggressive with drawing hands won't have a good returnSure, if your playing 10/20 it would be more effective, but I think it's gonna hit brick walls with the fisheeees.PS If your VP$IP is less than 20% those stats would probably have you as an 'eagle' using the default rules - which is right where you want to be.

With fish the pots get so big it's +EV to raise on draws (as long as you think you will get multiple callers)...that's why my aggression factor on the flop is so high. I raise alot of draws because of the pot equity. KTs against that many opponents in a that big of a pot should have enough equity to make raising correct. It's the "fish" that make it possible. It should make my bb/100 hands grow. I understand that is the most important, that is why i'm trying to figure out how to maximize my wins. Raising where a raise is profitable.

[justblaze 0]

K10s is too vulnerable. theres not as many straight draws as QJs and even less NUT straight draws, which is the important part. As well, the K is likely to be dominated by someone, whereas with a hand like QJ or J10 the J and Q are much more likely to be live. 300BB=300 big bets i.e. 3000$ for a 5-10 game

[wrto4556 0]

K10s is too vulnerable. theres not as many straight draws as QJs and even less NUT straight draws, which is the important part. As well, the K is likely to be dominated by someone, whereas with a hand like QJ or J10 the J and Q are much more likely to be live.

That's definatley something to think about. Thank you.

[poker_bull 0]

K10s is too vulnerable. theres not as many straight draws as QJs and even less NUT straight draws, which is the important part. As well, the K is likely to be dominated by someone, whereas with a hand like QJ or J10 the J and Q are much more likely to be live. 300BB=300 big bets i.e. 3000$ for a 5-10 game

Thanks blaze.

[Eclypse 0]

Hmm, here’s my stats:13,069 hands 3/6 Limit Hold’emVP$IP = 20.33Pre-flop raise = 7.54Aggression factor:Pre-flop = .50Flop = 2.17Turn = 1.86River = 1.49BB/100 = 4.22I am much less aggressive than you, but I can’t imagine being too much more aggressive than I already am. I very rarely cold-call a raise pre-flop—it’s either reraise or fold.I am currently ranked as a Slightly-Loose/Aggressive/Aggressive but seem to fluctuate to a Tight/Aggressive/Aggressive just about every other day (I’ve got the threshold between Tight and Slightly-Loose at VP$IP = 20 %).I worked really hard to bring my VP$IP down to the so-called “acceptable” 15-20% but I don’t make as much money at that percentage, so I am ignoring the general consensus and going with my more natural 20-24%. It works for me.

[wrto4556 0]

Hmm, here’s my stats:13,069 hands 3/6 Limit Hold’emVP$IP = 20.33Pre-flop raise = 7.54Aggression factor:Pre-flop = .50Flop = 2.17Turn = 1.86River = 1.49BB/100 = 4.22I am much less aggressive than you, but I can’t imagine being too much more aggressive than I already am. I very rarely cold-call a raise pre-flop—it’s either reraise or fold.I am currently ranked as a Slightly-Loose/Aggressive/Aggressive but seem to fluctuate to a Tight/Aggressive/Aggressive just about every other day (I’ve got the threshold between Tight and Slightly-Loose at VP$IP = 20 %).I worked really hard to bring my VP$IP down to the so-called “acceptable” 15-20% but I don’t make as much money at that percentage, so I am ignoring the general consensus and going with my more natural 20-24%. It works for me.

hmmmm.....those stats look like you're semi-loose/aggressive/passive.But about you being less aggressive, you say you hardly ever cold call a raise...your stats aren't bad preflop...maybe you should be more aggressive post-flop. I dunno. I'de have to see you play...it's just a guess from your stats. My flop and turn aggression factors are up in the 3 area. Who knows...