river line

[hotbacon 0]

MP1 is slightly loose and not really agressive or passive...PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cxPreflop: Hero is SB with [5 ], [T ]. 3 folds, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.Flop: (4 SB) [2 ], [J ], [6 ] (4 players)Hero checks, BB checks, MP1 bets, Button folds, Hero calls, BB folds.Turn: (3 BB) [J ] (2 players)Hero checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls.River: (5 BB) [T ] (2 players)Hero...

[No_Neck 0]

have you seen him play middle or bottom pair aggro like this? if not I think you gotta fold

[hotbacon 0]

I don't think folding is an option.

[screech 0]

I don't think folding is an option.

I don't either.I think bet/calling is really bad also.Check/call.

[hotbacon 0]

What about a b/f?

[screech 0]

What about a b/f?

I thought you said folding wasn't an option? :-) I don't like the bet/fold either. This guy has had the lead the whole way, he's probably going to bet here anyway.

[Sushiman 0]

What about a b/f?

I thought you said folding wasn't an option? :-) I don't like the bet/fold either. This guy has had the lead the whole way, he's probably going to bet here anyway.

I'd check call it. A bet wouldn't gain extra value from hands we can beat, and a check might induce a bluff from something like nut flush draw.

[Actuary 3]

b/f gets value from 77,88,99 that may, likely check behind.How bout a flop raise?Especially as we consider the pair of tens to be too strong to fold here.Just to open discussion.

[hotbacon 0]

What about a b/f?

I thought you said folding wasn't an option? :-) I don't like the bet/fold either. This guy has had the lead the whole way, he's probably going to bet here anyway.

woops. Meant check/folding wasn't an option.Don't you think checking will make him bet trips and occasionally some busted draws, but check hands I beat like a 6 or possibly a deuce?

[hotbacon 0]

b/f gets value from 77,88,99 that may, likely check behind.How bout a flop raise?Especially as we consider the pair of tens to be too strong to fold here.Just to open discussion.

Raising the flop is bad because it isolates me with someone who has a better hand than me in a super small pot OOP.

[Actuary 3]

ok...which leads me to this:Fold the turn. ??

[WonderfulSplash 0]

ok...which leads me to this:Fold the turn. ??

I agree...pot is tiny and even if we catch we probably can't raise.

[Sushiman 0]

ok...which leads me to this:Fold the turn. ??

I think I give it up there.

[psujohn 0]

I was thinking about raising the flop too but you're right, it's not appropriate here.Fold the turn. Pot it tiny and the way it's played we might not win even if we hit the flush.The way it's played check/call the river. I don't like bet/fold because villain may very well bluff this or even bet out thinking he has the best hand when we beat him. I wouldn't worry if it was checked behind either.

[screech 0]

I don't think we can fold the turn here. We are getting 4:1 immediate odds, so we need only to win 0.1BB on the river. I'm not concerned about being against a larger flush on HU. On the flop, I probably would have just lead out. We are in a good position to semi-bluff, since we will act first on every street.I think a check/call on the river is best for a few reasons:1) We have not shown any strength so far. If our opponent is on a draw, he may use the river as a scare card and bluff.2) I think our chances of being called by a worse hand are less than our opponent betting a worse hand. For starters, if our opponent was betting the whole way with a pair less than jacks, the river has changed nothing. If he is beat now, he was beat before. Also, if we bet, we may scare away a smaller pair because of the scare card that just hit.

[hotbacon 0]

I don't think folding the turn is right either. 4:1 immediate and almost certainly 5:1 implied. Although we do have to SLIGHTLY discount flush outs in some scenarios, this is outweighed by the fact that the T outs are clean a decent amount of the time. Even without the T outs 5:1 is pretty good for just a T high flush draw here.

1) We have not shown any strength so far. If our opponent is on a draw, he may use the river as a scare card and bluff.

Don't you think he takes a freecard on the turn with a draw?

2) I think our chances of being called by a worse hand are less than our opponent betting a worse hand. For starters, if our opponent was betting the whole way with a pair less than jacks, the river has changed nothing. If he is beat now, he was beat before. Also, if we bet, we may scare away a smaller pair because of the scare card that just hit.

I don't think he bets a worse hand more than he calls with one. 6x , 77, 88, 99 are all checking behind but calling a bet here. I think the key factor in b/f vs c/c here is how capable he is of bluffing, which I'm not really sure of.

[screech 0]

Don't you think he takes a freecard on the turn with a draw?

No. It would be a very bad play for him to take a free card HU, unless he thought there was a good chance you would c/r.

I don't think he bets a worse hand more than he calls with one. 6x , 77, 88, 99 are all checking behind but calling a bet here. I think the key factor in b/f vs c/c here is how capable he is of bluffing, which I'm not really sure of.

Of course, this is completely read dependent. I think most players that would semi-bluff the turn with a draw, would fire the last bullet here. I think it's close. When it's close like this, I would rather check/call then bet/fold.

[hotbacon 0]

No. It would be a very bad play for him to take a free card HU, unless he thought there was a good chance you would c/r.

No one ever said he's a good player :-)

I think it's close. When it's close like this, I would rather check/call then bet/fold.

Yeah, I ended up c/c and that was my main reason, second being I was 10 tabling and couldn't think about it long enough.Wanna hear the results? You'll be surprised to say the least.

[akishore 0]

the turn call sucks pretty badly if you don't think you have the best hand with ten high right now.do you see why?just kidding.but, the turn call does suck a lot.unless you're check/calling this river or check/calling with ten high on a brick (non-spade) river.aseem

[Actuary 3]

the turn call sucks pretty badly if you don't think you have the best hand with ten high right now.do you see why?just kidding.but, the turn call does suck a lot.unless you're check/calling this river or check/calling with ten high on a brick (non-spade) river.aseem

Are you advocating c/c a brick river?So you don't think the odds are ther to chase the T high flush?

[akishore 0]

the turn call sucks pretty badly if you don't think you have the best hand with ten high right now.do you see why?just kidding.but, the turn call does suck a lot.unless you're check/calling this river or check/calling with ten high on a brick (non-spade) river.aseem

Are you advocating c/c a brick river?So you don't think the odds are ther to chase the T high flush?

if you're check/folding any non-spade river, that means you are chasing exactly 9 outs. meaning you need 37-to-9 or 4.1-to-1.getting 4-to-1, just how high are your implied odds?you think you're getting a full 1 BB on the river everytime you hit a spade? i don't think so, IMHO. he either has a jack, which means up to two outs are dirty. or, he has nothing and is bluffing and won't pay you off anymore. or, he has another flush draw, which means about 3/8 of the time he'll have you beat and you'll lose some bets and 5/8 of the time you'll win some bets.all in all, you are being too generous if you give yourself implied odds here. at the table, in this situation, i give myself 0 implied odds. it's pretty close to that, i'd say. either way, i don't have enough overlay to call this profitably.that means that my "true" (known only to the poker gods) implied odds might be 4.5-to-1, but that means i'm barely squeaking out a profit, and since it might even be actually 3.8-to-1 (reverse implied odds), meaning i'm losing money.all in all, it's so close enough to make folding way better in this tiny pot with the paired board.the only time calling is good is when you're up against a LAG who very often has a lower flush draw here. which means you should be c/c any brick river because your ten high is best. which means you weren't calling the turn for the flush draw *only*.aseem

[hotbacon 0]

the turn call sucks pretty badly if you don't think you have the best hand with ten high right now.do you see why?just kidding.but, the turn call does suck a lot.unless you're check/calling this river or check/calling with ten high on a brick (non-spade) river.aseem

Are you advocating c/c a brick river?So you don't think the odds are ther to chase the T high flush?

if you're check/folding any non-spade river, that means you are chasing exactly 9 outs. meaning you need 37-to-9 or 4.1-to-1.getting 4-to-1, just how high are your implied odds?you think you're getting a full 1 BB on the river everytime you hit a spade? i don't think so, IMHO. he either has a jack, which means up to two outs are dirty. or, he has nothing and is bluffing and won't pay you off anymore. or, he has another flush draw, which means about 3/8 of the time he'll have you beat and you'll lose some bets and 5/8 of the time you'll win some bets.all in all, you are being too generous if you give yourself implied odds here. at the table, in this situation, i give myself 0 implied odds. it's pretty close to that, i'd say. either way, i don't have enough overlay to call this profitably.that means that my "true" (known only to the poker gods) implied odds might be 4.5-to-1, but that means i'm barely squeaking out a profit, and since it might even be actually 3.8-to-1 (reverse implied odds), meaning i'm losing money.all in all, it's so close enough to make folding way better in this tiny pot with the paired board.the only time calling is good is when you're up against a LAG who very often has a lower flush draw here. which means you should be c/c any brick river because your ten high is best. which means you weren't calling the turn for the flush draw *only*.aseem

I think that this is 6x or something quite a bit here, and he will certainly pay a river bet off with that. Also, I have the T outs against that hand. Jx is probably equally likely and only gives me 8 outs, but if I hit one of those I'm probably averaging 1.5 bets from a river b/c. A higher flush draw is definetely something to worry about, but I really think he takes a free card on the turn with that.

[Actuary 3]

the turn call sucks pretty badly if you don't think you have the best hand with ten high right now.do you see why?just kidding.but, the turn call does suck a lot.unless you're check/calling this river or check/calling with ten high on a brick (non-spade) river.aseem

Are you advocating c/c a brick river?So you don't think the odds are ther to chase the T high flush?

if you're check/folding any non-spade river, that means you are chasing exactly 9 outs. meaning you need 37-to-9 or 4.1-to-1.getting 4-to-1, just how high are your implied odds?you think you're getting a full 1 BB on the river everytime you hit a spade? i don't think so, IMHO. he either has a jack, which means up to two outs are dirty. or, he has nothing and is bluffing and won't pay you off anymore. or, he has another flush draw, which means about 3/8 of the time he'll have you beat and you'll lose some bets and 5/8 of the time you'll win some bets.all in all, you are being too generous if you give yourself implied odds here. at the table, in this situation, i give myself 0 implied odds. it's pretty close to that, i'd say. either way, i don't have enough overlay to call this profitably.that means that my "true" (known only to the poker gods) implied odds might be 4.5-to-1, but that means i'm barely squeaking out a profit, and since it might even be actually 3.8-to-1 (reverse implied odds), meaning i'm losing money.all in all, it's so close enough to make folding way better in this tiny pot with the paired board.the only time calling is good is when you're up against a LAG who very often has a lower flush draw here. which means you should be c/c any brick river because your ten high is best. which means you weren't calling the turn for the flush draw *only*.aseem

coolYou used reverse logic and I got confused.Note, I too, advocate folding turn earlier.So I'm down.