check it down or not?

[RayPowers 0]

I'm just curious as to what everyone's feeling is on this nowadays.Its late in a no limit tournament, getting close to the bubble. You, and two others are in a pot. One guy is all in for his last few chips preflop and you two are playing with an addition small side pot (less than 2 big blinds). The flop comes up blanks, missing you. Do you bet to try to bluff the guy out of the side pot to win those chips, or check it down to try to make sure you knock out the all in guy, betting only when you are confident you have the all in guy.Last night I had this happen twice, and it went both ways. The first time a guy bet the flop, the other guy folded, the first guy proudly flipped over j-10 (which hit none of the board) and took his small pot, but also effectively tripled the all in guy with his ace rag when the board blanked, and I wanted to strangle the better.In the second situation I was allin with AK, and two people had me covered. The flop came 2-10-2 and the smallblind bet, the other guy folded, and the small blind flipped over A-10, which to me seemed fair, as the guy was sayign with that bet 'Look, I have a top pair top kicker, unless you can beat that, I'll just take this guy out.'Thoughts?Ray

[speedz99 145]

Proper play is to check it down unless you really think you have the best hand and the other guy might pay you off. With marginal/decent/solid hands it's still better to check it down.

[TheCinciKid 0]

Your scenario included a small side pot, which makes betting defensible, but I still don't think it's proper strategy unless you have a very strong hand. What really hacks me off is when people bluff into a dry side pot and end up letting the all-in guy back into the tourney. I, personally, will only bet into a dry or small side pot, with a very good hand...in the hopes that they other guy will come along and I'll get some more of his chips. Most of the time I'm content to check it down, even with hands like TPTK...it's always important to get rid of people, especially late in a tourney.

[mrdannyg 274]

i think in most cases you check it down. for a hand like A-10 in that situation, i think its a smart play to bet it, since you almost certainly have a better hand than the all-in player, but your hand is still vulnerable to the live player's overcards. in that particular type of situation, i think a bet is in order.it also depends on the cards the all-in player might have. i was playing in a freeroll last night for instance where a player was going all-in quite often. the side pots were not small either, since he still had chips. so he went all-in at one point for 900 chips, and was called by myself and another player. we each had about 1500 chips, and the side pot was 2700. we checked until the river, and i decided to make a dry-side bluff with ace-high, since it legitimately could be ahead of the all-in player but the live player would quite likely fold a better hand. it did work, but to ignore results, i was essentially making a 600 chip bet with quite a good chance to win 2700 more, and so i believe a dry-side bluff was called for in that situation.danielp.s. if i have misused the term dry-side bluff, i apologize.

[Logun 0]

Like everything in poker it is al situational. A friend of mine was in a spot where he had 60,000 in chips, Chip leader was at 63,000.UTG pushes with 19,000 and he's got AK so he callsChip leader calls as well from the BBFlop K99Chip leader pushes.....There's 57,000 in the main pot and nothing in the side. I don't think this is a bad play. Even though they were in the money at this point (4 players left), the chips in the main pot would have a distinct impact on the out come of the tourny.

[Guest Anonymous]

I'm just curious as to what everyone's feeling is on this nowadays.Its late in a no limit tournament, getting close to the bubble. You, and two others are in a pot. One guy is all in for his last few chips preflop and you two are playing with an addition small side pot (less than 2 big blinds). The flop comes up blanks, missing you. Do you bet to try to bluff the guy out of the side pot to win those chips, or check it down to try to make sure you knock out the all in guy, betting only when you are confident you have the all in guy.Last night I had this happen twice, and it went both ways. The first time a guy bet the flop, the other guy folded, the first guy proudly flipped over j-10 (which hit none of the board) and took his small pot, but also effectively tripled the all in guy with his ace rag when the board blanked, and I wanted to strangle the better.In the second situation I was allin with AK, and two people had me covered. The flop came 2-10-2 and the smallblind bet, the other guy folded, and the small blind flipped over A-10, which to me seemed fair, as the guy was sayign with that bet 'Look, I have a top pair top kicker, unless you can beat that, I'll just take this guy out.'Thoughts?Ray

If you're going to try to push someone off a small side pot, you better be sure you have the all-in beat. It's to your advantage to have another player gone.The only time I bet into a small side pot, when I know my hand is not the best, is when I flop a 3 flush, or a gutshot, or something similar. If I hit it, I want to be paid. So I'll make a small bet after the flop to build the pot a little, and progressively larger bets on the turn and river if I get what I need. If I miss, I haven't driven the guy out and he gets a small payday.

[speedz99 145]

I'm just curious as to what everyone's feeling is on this nowadays.Its late in a no limit tournament, getting close to the bubble. You, and two others are in a pot. One guy is all in for his last few chips preflop and you two are playing with an addition small side pot (less than 2 big blinds). The flop comes up blanks, missing you. Do you bet to try to bluff the guy out of the side pot to win those chips, or check it down to try to make sure you knock out the all in guy, betting only when you are confident you have the all in guy.Last night I had this happen twice, and it went both ways. The first time a guy bet the flop, the other guy folded, the first guy proudly flipped over j-10 (which hit none of the board) and took his small pot, but also effectively tripled the all in guy with his ace rag when the board blanked, and I wanted to strangle the better.In the second situation I was allin with AK, and two people had me covered. The flop came 2-10-2 and the smallblind bet, the other guy folded, and the small blind flipped over A-10, which to me seemed fair, as the guy was sayign with that bet 'Look, I have a top pair top kicker, unless you can beat that, I'll just take this guy out.'Thoughts?Ray

If you're going to try to push someone off a small side pot, you better be sure you have the all-in beat. It's to your advantage to have another player gone.The only time I bet into a small side pot, when I know my hand is not the best, is when I flop a 3 flush, or a gutshot, or something similar. If I hit it, I want to be paid. So I'll make a small bet after the flop to build the pot a little, and progressively larger bets on the turn and river if I get what I need. If I miss, I haven't driven the guy out and he gets a small payday.

Honestly, that's the worst thing you can do. A semi-bluff into a side pot is horrible...what if your opponent folds the best hand and your flush doesn't come through? You just tripled up the all-in unnecessarily.

[JFinn08 0]

There is no dry side pot. I dont care how big it is. I want those chips. Unless Im also a shortstack, I could care less if the shorty triples up. Get me closer to the final table, and I MIGHT rather check it down if the increase in money is significant. If its a dry side pot, then there is no real reason to bluff at it. If I have any made hand though, then Im trying to get more chips from the other guy. Im shock when I see people check down a dry side pot with TPTK at this point in a tournament. Why on earth would you do this??? Is it really more important to get this guy out just because we're on the bubble that your willing to give up chips yourself to do it??? Im playing whatever play is going to help me win....I can care less what the other guy thinks.Just MHO

[Royal_Tour 0]

check it down, unless i'm almost certain i'm winning the hand.other than that i check it down with expectations that the 2nd player will also.have had times in money situations where theres a few guy s left and 1 guy raises a side pot., and i type in. I sure hope ur not drybluffing.sure enouhg he was, i called him an idiot since he lost and the other guy tripled up, and his reply "whatever, why would it matter, i'll play how i want".I love the "I'll do what i want" replies. u know he's gotta be 16 when...

[speedz99 145]

There is no dry side pot.  I dont care how big it is.  I want those chips.  Unless Im also a shortstack, I could care less if the shorty triples up.  Get me closer to the final table, and I MIGHT rather check it down if the increase in money is significant.  If its a dry side pot, then there is no real reason to bluff at it.  If I have any made hand though, then Im trying to get more chips from the other guy.  Im shock when I see people check down a dry side pot with TPTK at this point in a tournament.  Why on earth would you do this???  Is it really more important to get this guy out just because we're on the bubble that your willing to give up chips yourself to do it???  Im playing whatever play is going to help me win....I can care less what the other guy thinks.Just MHO

Eeeek. Please go read Harrington's books. You're killing yourself if this is how you think about all-ins with minimal side pots.

[JFinn08 0]

Again, I cant say exactly what I would do in this exact situation because not enough info is given.But, if we assume you have a healthy stack, why in the world would you care who goes out first. Lets say there are 62 people left and top 60 pay. You are 3rd in chips. Lets say you have AK, you raise, another reraises all in, LP calls, you call.Flop comes 3 8 10. Are seriously going to check this down because you want that guy out?? No freakin way. I dont care if he gets eliminated or not. If not him, it will be someone else, and probably not me. I want those chips, and if I think I have a better chance heads up against the all in, then hell yes I am betting at that flop.DN actually has a good article on this somewhere. Ill try to dig it up.

[JFinn08 0]

There is no dry side pot.  I dont care how big it is.  I want those chips.  Unless Im also a shortstack, I could care less if the shorty triples up.  Get me closer to the final table, and I MIGHT rather check it down if the increase in money is significant.  If its a dry side pot, then there is no real reason to bluff at it.  If I have any made hand though, then Im trying to get more chips from the other guy.  Im shock when I see people check down a dry side pot with TPTK at this point in a tournament.  Why on earth would you do this???  Is it really more important to get this guy out just because we're on the bubble that your willing to give up chips yourself to do it???  Im playing whatever play is going to help me win....I can care less what the other guy thinks.Just MHO

Eeeek. Please go read Harrington's books. You're killing yourself if this is how you think about all-ins with minimal side pots.

I dont need to read Harringtons books. If I have a decent hand Im playing it, if the situation is right.

[Royal_Tour 0]

Again, I cant say exactly what I would do in this exact situation because not enough info is given.But, if we assume you have a healthy stack, why in the world would you care who goes out first.  Lets say there are 62 people left and top 60 pay.  You are 3rd in chips.  Lets say you have AK, you raise, another reraises all in, LP calls, you call.Flop comes 3 8 10.  Are seriously going to check this down because you want that guy out??  No freakin way.  I dont care if he gets eliminated or not.  If not him, it will be someone else, and probably not me.  I want those chips, and if I think I have a better chance heads up against the all in, then hell yes I am betting at that flop.DN actually has a good article on this somewhere.  Ill try to dig it up.

heres the thing. would you rather play heads up with 50k vs 50k. or 3 way with 50 vs 25k and 25k.???and your second paragraph which contains complete garbage.Yes. i am checking that. that is exactly where i would check 100%. because lets say the all in has 9,9. u hold A,K and player 2 hold J,K. a J hits, but you pushed play 2 out. so the 9's hold up. and ur still stuck with less money.

[JFinn08 0]

Hey Speedz....Here is DN's article.Check out example number 5.Maybe DN should read some Harrington too. ;-)http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/a...d=13135&m_id=54Edit: Royal, in response to your comment, Is this article garbage??

[Royal_Tour 0]

Hey Speedz....Here is DN's article.Check out example number 5.Maybe DN should read some Harrington too.  ;-)http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/a...d=13135&m_id=54Edit:  Royal, in response to your comment, Is this article garbage??

DN is saying there is 24 guys left, there is 1 player all in for the BB in a limit event.NL is much different. sicne he could be all in for half ur stack. which is why him tripling up is bad.in LIMIT when he is all in for that BB, and he triples up, its not as much to worry about, but trying to win that extra 2K is always nice., trying to win an extra 20K in a NL event where you miss and short stack then triples up and now has more than you. is stupid

[Royal_Tour 0]

do u understand Finn?

[JFinn08 0]

Again, I cant say exactly what I would do in this exact situation because not enough info is given.But, if we assume you have a healthy stack, why in the world would you care who goes out first. Lets say there are 62 people left and top 60 pay. You are 3rd in chips. Lets say you have AK, you raise, another reraises all in, LP calls, you call.Flop comes 3 8 10. Are seriously going to check this down because you want that guy out?? No freakin way. I dont care if he gets eliminated or not. If not him, it will be someone else, and probably not me. I want those chips, and if I think I have a better chance heads up against the all in, then hell yes I am betting at that flop.DN actually has a good article on this somewhere. Ill try to dig it up.

heres the thing. would you rather play heads up with 50k vs 50k. or 3 way with 50 vs 25k and 25k.???and your second paragraph which contains complete garbage.Yes. i am checking that. that is exactly where i would check 100%. because lets say the all in has 9,9. u hold A,K and player 2 hold J,K. a J hits, but you pushed play 2 out. so the 9's hold up. and ur still stuck with less money.

Dont I have less money either way??? How did checking this down help me. Yeah, one guy is out, but another has my chips. Id rather the shorty have my chips then someone with more chips.

[Royal_Tour 0]

Again, I cant say exactly what I would do in this exact situation because not enough info is given.But, if we assume you have a healthy stack, why in the world would you care who goes out first. Lets say there are 62 people left and top 60 pay. You are 3rd in chips. Lets say you have AK, you raise, another reraises all in, LP calls, you call.Flop comes 3 8 10. Are seriously going to check this down because you want that guy out?? No freakin way. I dont care if he gets eliminated or not. If not him, it will be someone else, and probably not me. I want those chips, and if I think I have a better chance heads up against the all in, then hell yes I am betting at that flop.DN actually has a good article on this somewhere. Ill try to dig it up.

heres the thing. would you rather play heads up with 50k vs 50k. or 3 way with 50 vs 25k and 25k.???and your second paragraph which contains complete garbage.Yes. i am checking that. that is exactly where i would check 100%. because lets say the all in has 9,9. u hold A,K and player 2 hold J,K. a J hits, but you pushed play 2 out. so the 9's hold up. and ur still stuck with less money.

Dont I have less money either way??? How did checking this down help me. Yeah, one guy is out, but another has my chips. Id rather the shorty have my chips then someone with more chips.

id rather play HU as a underdog then play 3 way when prize money is huge differenceWith your reasoning, its smart to dry bluff and lose the hand, rather than give the money to another large stack?. is this correct>?this is how ur rational thought process works?

[JFinn08 0]

do u understand Finn?

Royal, all I am saying is there are times when betting into a side dry pot is the right play.In my example Im assuming Im 3rd in chips and the all in is the shortstack. Im not commiting half my chips, and if the all in wins, he's not going to have more chips than me. Most likely not even close.

[JFinn08 0]

Again, I cant say exactly what I would do in this exact situation because not enough info is given.But, if we assume you have a healthy stack, why in the world would you care who goes out first. Lets say there are 62 people left and top 60 pay. You are 3rd in chips. Lets say you have AK, you raise, another reraises all in, LP calls, you call.Flop comes 3 8 10. Are seriously going to check this down because you want that guy out?? No freakin way. I dont care if he gets eliminated or not. If not him, it will be someone else, and probably not me. I want those chips, and if I think I have a better chance heads up against the all in, then hell yes I am betting at that flop.DN actually has a good article on this somewhere. Ill try to dig it up.

heres the thing. would you rather play heads up with 50k vs 50k. or 3 way with 50 vs 25k and 25k.???and your second paragraph which contains complete garbage.Yes. i am checking that. that is exactly where i would check 100%. because lets say the all in has 9,9. u hold A,K and player 2 hold J,K. a J hits, but you pushed play 2 out. so the 9's hold up. and ur still stuck with less money.

Dont I have less money either way??? How did checking this down help me. Yeah, one guy is out, but another has my chips. Id rather the shorty have my chips then someone with more chips.

id rather play HU as a underdog then play 3 way when prize money is huge differenceWith your reasoning, its smart to dry bluff and lose the hand, rather than give the money to another large stack?. is this correct>?this is how ur rational thought process works?

Of course I would rather play HU as an underdog. But we're talking about the final 3 here. We're talking about playing right before the bubble where the prize difference is not that big!And yes I would rather a short stack have the chips than another huge stack at this point in the tourney.

[Royal_Tour 0]

do u understand Finn?

Royal, all I am saying is there are times when betting into a side dry pot is the right play.In my example Im assuming Im 3rd in chips and the all in is the shortstack. Im not commiting half my chips, and if the all in wins, he's not going to have more chips than me. Most likely not even close.

who is to say that?> thats why this is on a case by case basis, the short stack could triple and have more.when u play HU, and ur 2nd to act, and you have top pair, and u bet out, and your opponent calls ur flop bet, with 2 hearts on board, he calls ur turn bet, and the river brings a rag with no heart. so if you put him oa flush draw and he checks the river, do you bet out again?.

[Royal_Tour 0]

Again, I cant say exactly what I would do in this exact situation because not enough info is given.But, if we assume you have a healthy stack, why in the world would you care who goes out first. Lets say there are 62 people left and top 60 pay. You are 3rd in chips. Lets say you have AK, you raise, another reraises all in, LP calls, you call.Flop comes 3 8 10. Are seriously going to check this down because you want that guy out?? No freakin way. I dont care if he gets eliminated or not. If not him, it will be someone else, and probably not me. I want those chips, and if I think I have a better chance heads up against the all in, then hell yes I am betting at that flop.DN actually has a good article on this somewhere. Ill try to dig it up.

heres the thing. would you rather play heads up with 50k vs 50k. or 3 way with 50 vs 25k and 25k.???and your second paragraph which contains complete garbage.Yes. i am checking that. that is exactly where i would check 100%. because lets say the all in has 9,9. u hold A,K and player 2 hold J,K. a J hits, but you pushed play 2 out. so the 9's hold up. and ur still stuck with less money.

Dont I have less money either way??? How did checking this down help me. Yeah, one guy is out, but another has my chips. Id rather the shorty have my chips then someone with more chips.

id rather play HU as a underdog then play 3 way when prize money is huge differenceWith your reasoning, its smart to dry bluff and lose the hand, rather than give the money to another large stack?. is this correct>?this is how ur rational thought process works?

Of course I would rather play HU as an underdog. But we're talking about the final 3 here. We're talking about playing right before the bubble where the prize difference is not that big!

Only if u are chip leader, and short stack is really short, other than that, i dont care if jimmy woods gets the money, cuz the other dumbass is knocked out, so i'll take my chances against jimmy woods with my same size stack. even if there is 20 players left.

[JFinn08 0]

do u understand Finn?

Royal, all I am saying is there are times when betting into a side dry pot is the right play.In my example Im assuming Im 3rd in chips and the all in is the shortstack. Im not commiting half my chips, and if the all in wins, he's not going to have more chips than me. Most likely not even close.

who is to say that?> thats why this is on a case by case basis, the short stack could triple and have more.when u play HU, and ur 2nd to act, and you have top pair, and u bet out, and your opponent calls ur flop bet, with 2 hearts on board, he calls ur turn bet, and the river brings a rag with no heart. so if you put him oa flush draw and he checks the river, do you bet out again?.

exactlyDo you at least agree that there is certain situations when it is ok to bet into a dry side?

[Royal_Tour 0]

do u understand Finn?

Royal, all I am saying is there are times when betting into a side dry pot is the right play.In my example Im assuming Im 3rd in chips and the all in is the shortstack. Im not commiting half my chips, and if the all in wins, he's not going to have more chips than me. Most likely not even close.

who is to say that?> thats why this is on a case by case basis, the short stack could triple and have more.when u play HU, and ur 2nd to act, and you have top pair, and u bet out, and your opponent calls ur flop bet, with 2 hearts on board, he calls ur turn bet, and the river brings a rag with no heart. so if you put him oa flush draw and he checks the river, do you bet out again?.

exactlyDo you at least agree that there is certain situations when it is ok to bet into a dry side?

yes, i do, when i'm holding a nice hand, that i think stands a chance. and i'm not worried abotu the short stack.but put ur self in the other guys shoes. if you saw some guy dry bluff ur all in and scare soemone else out, and he holds 2 overs. to ur mid PP. wouldnt u be excited as shidt?

[JFinn08 0]

do u understand Finn?

Royal, all I am saying is there are times when betting into a side dry pot is the right play.In my example Im assuming Im 3rd in chips and the all in is the shortstack. Im not commiting half my chips, and if the all in wins, he's not going to have more chips than me. Most likely not even close.

who is to say that?> thats why this is on a case by case basis, the short stack could triple and have more.when u play HU, and ur 2nd to act, and you have top pair, and u bet out, and your opponent calls ur flop bet, with 2 hearts on board, he calls ur turn bet, and the river brings a rag with no heart. so if you put him oa flush draw and he checks the river, do you bet out again?.

exactlyDo you at least agree that there is certain situations when it is ok to bet into a dry side?

yes, i do, when i'm holding a nice hand, that i think stands a chance. and i'm not worried abotu the short stack.but put ur self in the other guys shoes. if you saw some guy dry bluff ur all in and scare soemone else out, and he holds 2 overs. to ur mid PP. wouldnt u be excited as shidt?

What exactly is a hand that stands a chance. Im not saying bet out with 85os or anything. Im saying if I hold a hand such as AJs on a board of say359 Im betting this flop. IF....I have a signifiant chip stackthe all in is a shortstack, we'll 5xbb or lessand we are still far enough away from the big money to worry about knocking out some shortstack.I also like in DNs article how he points out that it is sometimes beneficial to keep a shorty in the game.agreed?