poker etiquette - opponents hole cards

[Matt Miner 0]

I think one of the major differences between the ppl who share our point of view and ppl who don't is the perception of what the game of poker is...To some folks it is an honorable duel of wits, courage, and skill...But to us it is simple. Seek out, attack, and destroy those players who are quite obviously weaker players. It is cat and mouse, predetor and prey... Not some contest of the mind.well i think it's both actually.

[ErikM 0]

OK re-phrase... I agree it is a battle of the minds...What I was trying to imply was that... the difference is that I am gonig to take that fight to the person with the weakest mind... for the sake of relieving them of the chips.

[Matt Miner 0]

no i agree with you.

[poker_bull 0]

You're a goober...

That says it all...

[Matt Miner 0]

That says it all...indeed it does. you guys aren't smart enough to have an intelligent discussion about this, therefore you resort to ad hominem.

[TheIceman05 0]

I think one of the major differences between the ppl who share our point of view and ppl who don't is the perception of what the game of poker is...To some folks it is an honorable duel of wits, courage, and skill...But to us it is simple. Seek out, attack, and destroy those players who are quite obviously weaker players. It is cat and mouse, predetor and prey... Not some contest of the mind.well i think it's both actually.

See, I don't play this game professionally. I make a few hundred bucks a month online and at the casino, and I pay my utility bills with it. During good months, I get to drink Absolut instead of Mohawk. That's it. I'm good enough to beat most any 3-6 game, and I'm good enough to handle 1/2 online without putting too much effort into game selection or rooting out "obviously weaker player." But I still think y'all who're condemning the morality of those who would use the free and accidental peeks to their advantage are WAY out of line. No one has, as of yet:1) Presented anything close to a situation analgous to the one we're discussing the ethics of that is obviously immoral2) Presented some reason- NOT based on the results of the information (ie, "well, you have an advantage"- that looking at someone's exposed cards is inherently wrong3) Shown some basic moral principle this is in violation of.Look, I don't think it makes you a fool if you tell the gentleman to your right that he's tipping his hand. But it definitely doesn't make you a scoundrel if you don't want to be his daddy and correct him. It's not against the rules to purposefully profit from the mistake of another (unless the deck is defective). And one is definitely not morally corrupt for doing so. Also, the guy who bragged about being an angle shooter should get his nuts cut off, for the following reasons:1) He's an angle shooter2) He sucks3) I want to fight himIceman

[ErikM 0]

Poker Bull...I suppose I should be telling weak players not to draw to gut straights and not to over value suited cards, and not to re-raise pre-flop with weak aces, and not to act out of turn, and not telegraph their intentions, and not to buy-in short stacked, and not to PLAY AGAINST ME AT ALL.So that we are on an equal playing field.How would i make any money if I didn't play against bad players and take advantage of the things that make them bad?I wouldn't.But I imagine winning money is not necessarily your concern.

[poker_bull 0]

This is obviously an issue that has two extreme sides in which side 'A' thinks side 'B' is wrong in their thinking and side 'B' thinks side 'A' are goobers. In my opinion it's not about logic, but more about morals...again that's my opinion. Sometimes you just have to agree to disagree, turn the corner and continue playing your game the way you see fit.End of story.

[ErikM 0]

If you scroll back to that post, i only called that guy a goober because he contradicted himself... NOT because he didn't share my opinion.I can absolutely see your point on this topic. The reason I don't agree with you is because I don't think that not telling someone he is flashing his cards is cheating...I am opposed to what I consider cheating... marked cards, hand/chip signals etc.I feel that catching a peek at someones cards is part of being observant which is part of playing a good game.So to recap... i think that guy is a goober because he said, poker is about deception... not about dishonesty. (It's the same thing) Not because he thinks that catching a peek and not saying something is cheating... If thats your view... then by all means. Tell.I don't think it's cheating... I think its good poker skill.

[poker_bull 0]

If you scroll back to that post, i only called that guy a goober because he contradicted himself... NOT because he didn't share my opinion.I can absolutely see your point on this topic. The reason I don't agree with you is because I don't think that not telling someone he is flashing his cards is cheating...I am opposed to what I consider cheating... marked cards, hand/chip signals etc.I feel that catching a peek at someones cards is part of being observant which is part of playing a good game.So to recap... i think that guy is a goober because he said, poker is about deception... not about dishonesty. (It's the same thing) Not because he thinks that catching a peek and not saying something is cheating... If thats your view... then by all means. Tell.I don't think it's cheating... I think its good poker skill.

Gotcha. Now come here and give me a big hug. Wait, uh...hmm...I mean, uh...

[ErikM 0]

LOL

[digitalmonkey 929]

You're a goober...

"goober"....BAAAHhhhhhaahahaaaaahahthat's some funny sheet!

[NickTheKid 0]

Wow, 3 points. Good work Iceman hows this?1) I'm an angle shooter who actually knows how to play, collusion isn't something that can be done by any moron who has no idea how to play.2) I'd play you, but you'd challange me online: AKA bullsh!t poker, if only I could play you 1v1 in the real world, the place where you can be read like a book because you usually hide behind a computer screen.3) Fight me? Again, you don't even know me. I'm sure someone who uses terms like "ain't" and signs his name after every post is a real threat, good work EThug, you've accomplished nothing. I am so intimidated!!! :?

[TheIceman05 0]

Wow, 3 points. Good work Iceman hows this?1) I'm an angle shooter who actually knows how to play, collusion isn't something that can be done by any moron who has no idea how to play.2) I'd play you, but you'd challange me online: AKA bullsh!t poker, if only I could play you 1v1 in the real world, the place where you can be read like a book because you usually hide behind a computer screen.3) Fight me? Again, you don't even know me. I'm sure someone who uses terms like "ain't" and signs his name after every post is a real threat, good work EThug, you've accomplished nothing. I am so intimidated!!! :?

Good, this is what I was hoping for. You're scum. I have some respect for most scum, but you're not JUST scum. You're self-contradictory, hypocritical scum. Frankly, that's the kind of scum I hate the most. Here's why you're a fool. "I'd play you, but you'd challange me online: AKA bullsh!t poker, if only I could play you 1v1 in the real world..."Let's list the problems with this, starting with the most troubling:1) Though I prefer to play in person, I'm an avid online player. I'll admit it. You refer to it as "bullshit poker," and imply it wouldn't be a true test of skill. Didn't you JUST admit to unabashed, out-and-out, spank your momma's ass CHEATING? 2) Your spelling and grammar are atrocious. I won't even list the errors. 3) If we play "1v1" who are you going to collude with? I hope you understand, for the sake of argument and sanity, I would be absolutely unable to collude with youSo, instead of saying all the terrible things I'd love to say to you right now, let's take a vote:Anyone else think NickTheKid's the reason people have such a negative image of poker players? And that he sucks?

[NickTheKid 0]

Fair enough, But this "You're self-contradictory, hypocritical scum."... I've never met him my friend. I don't play a bunch of nice guys who are getting robbed by a little peice of trash. I play a bunch of jerks who have actually colluded in the past. Yes I do have proof so there is no need to ask me if I do. So I'm a hippocrite now? I play skill poker, and angle shoot the people who deserve to be cheated. Take all the votes you like, I hope it's 100% in your favour. All it proves is that YOU people are the hippocrites. Looking at someone's hole cards turns you into nothing more than a cheat, a hippocritical scumbag cheat which you all hate so much. Does anyone else sense the irony here?

[faketree 0]

I realize that I did contradict myself earlier when i mentioned 'dishonest' and 'deception' as being different things. Technically, they are the same. My choice of words was obviously awful. My bad.Still doesn't change the fact that you are drawing your own line as to what constitutes cheating and what doesn't. And I can clearly see how this particular point has caused so much debate. First, it doesn't seem to clearly state anywhere that looking at someone's cards is cheating. But it also doesn't say anything about what would be considered cheating beside obvious collusion and software issues online. So, what to do about this dilemma? I sure don't know. All I know is that I would not do what you seem to think is totally fine and justified. I also wouldn't do most of the things people get away with these days, e.g insider trading, corporate shilling, etc. I am not going to breach my idea of ethical behavior in life so I wouldn't breach it in poker. Afterall, poker is a microcosm of life.Not to mention the bad karma.And its hypocrite, hypocritical, etc. A hippo is a large animal from Africa and could crush you in an instant.

[NickTheKid 0]

Whoops,

[JimmyWellington 1]

To gleefully admit to collusion, and then be proud of it, has got to be one of the most despicable things I've ever read. I hope you post to the forum telling how hard it is to type with two broken thumbs when you get caught.As for the hole card debate. I would tell them 2 times. Plus, I would tell them loud enough for everyone at the table to hear. The second time I would say, "this is the last time I'm going to tell you". Normally, the other people at the table will take an active interest in said player protecting his hole cards. I don't see anything wrong with people using information from seeing other people's cards (IF it doesn't involve going out of your way to see their cards). If I see someone across the table from me not guarding their cards and I realize that another player can see their cards, then I will be the one to tell them to guard their cards.

[NickTheKid 0]

You can't sh!t on me for collusion then say "There is nothing wrong with seeing someones cards unintentionally and using it as a big advantage"... what you people are doing is much worse than what I'm doing, and I'm not the one coming on these forums with dreams of the WSoP or WPT on my mind. I play poker for money, 95% of the time I play straight, on the occassional time where I play people I don't like you are god damn right I'm proud to cheat them, it's not that I can't beat them straight, I'd rather cheat them because I don't like them. Like it or not that's the way it is.

[jack24bauer24 0]

First off, whoever made the post about comparing noticing someone's hole cards who's clearly exposing them to a computer program that reveals everyone's hole cards is about the stupidest thing I've ever heard.2ndly, its not immoral to look at someone's cards who's clearly exposing them. Great players use all their senses to their advantage...watch Phil Ivey play, his eyes dart around the table like he's got ADD. He's looking at everyone, at everything, looking for any sort of piece of information he could get. If some schmuck at the table isn't protecting his cards and they can be seen, he's going to use that to his advantage.The FIRST poker skill anyone should be told is how to look at their cards while protecting them. If this can't be done its the same reraising with 72 off suit...its not immoral to take money from a 27 sucker, and its not immoral to not mention if someone is exposing their cards. If you wish to tell him fine, if you don't wish to tell him fine. There's no rule or moral code saying you have to open your mouth at the poker table ever, other than to signify "raise, bet, call, fold".Anyone who says otherwise is living in a dream world.These people who are jumping all over the group who says they wouldn't mention anything clearly think they are better than everyone else and have self assurance issues. I would suggest there is a strong chance you also voted for the Bush administration. (Having said this, Kerry was/is a complete tool)

[jack24bauer24 0]

Nick...I think you must be 12 years old.

[MrConceit 0]

2ndly, its not immoral to look at someone's cards who's clearly exposing them. Great players use all their senses to their advantage...watch Phil Ivey play, his eyes dart around the table like he's got ADD. He's looking at everyone, at everything, looking for any sort of piece of information he could get. If some schmuck at the table isn't protecting his cards and they can be seen, he's going to use that to his advantage.The FIRST poker skill anyone should be told is how to look at their cards while protecting them. If this can't be done its the same reraising with 72 off suit...its not immoral to take money from a 27 sucker, and its not immoral to not mention if someone is exposing their cards. If you wish to tell him fine, if you don't wish to tell him fine. There's no rule or moral code saying you have to open your mouth at the poker table ever, other than to signify "raise, bet, call, fold".Anyone who says otherwise is living in a dream world.

This whole thing has gotten blown out of proportion, how shocking. I agree it's every person's right to use any information that is available to them if they aren't breaking any rules. I wouldn't go OMG YOU'RE A CHEATER to all of those fine money-hungry young lad who have posted in this thread and ganged up on the Moral Minority dude. But I personally will always be telling somebody if they are showing their cards. I don't want to win like that. I personally think it's wrong. And I'll tell the guy across the table whose cards you've been avidly watching for a rotation or two also. Imo it's similar to taking somebody's $20 he drops on the ground while leaving a gas station. Do you tell him or wait until he's gone and take it?But regardless, I'm not going to go SHAME ON YOU. It's pointless. You're doing nothing illegal. I personally find it immoral, but so what? Lots of people find abortion immoral and that doesn't mean they can tell my girlfriend she can't get an abortion.Stop trying to impose your will or morals on others. Including you, whoever you were, the guy getting ganged up on and yelled at. Forget about these guys. You'll never change their minds, not in a million years. Just keep doing what you think is right, and keep playing poker.

[JimmyWellington 1]

You can't sh!t on me for collusion then say "There is nothing wrong with seeing someones cards unintentionally and using it as a big advantage"... what you people are doing is much worse than what I'm doing, and I'm not the one coming on these forums with dreams of the WSoP or WPT on my mind. I play poker for money, 95% of the time I play straight, on the occassional time where I play people I don't like you are god damn right I'm proud to cheat them, it's not that I can't beat them straight, I'd rather cheat them because I don't like them. Like it or not that's the way it is.

I'm not going to get sucked into this discussion, but if you don't see a difference between collusion and inadvertantly seeing someone's hole cards, then either you're just trying to get a rise out of people or your logic meter is broken. Oh, and if you're going to quote me, quote me correctly.

[ErikM 0]

What exactly is teh definition of an "angle shooter?"Is that someone who colludes... or is it more general, someone who seeks out "edges"Just curious, what exactly you guys mean.Personally, I wouldn't collude... I've been asked to participate and declined, I also suspect that I may have been the victim.My position on it is... again, it all comes down to observation.yes I think colluding is cheating but I also know it's my responsibility to identify its going on... and walk away. Just stand up and announce, "I don't play team poker..." and bounce.Observing a beting pattern and determining it's suspicious is somethinga skilled poker player should be able to do. And having the discipline to walk away from the game even if you just have a slight suspicion that cheating is going on is something a good poker player should do.So although I wouldn't collude... because from a moral stand point I think that activity is wrong... Im not going to crucify a team for doing it to someoen that doesn't know any better...Ultimately... I think if you don't know enough to catch a whiff of cheating... You in a sense deserve what you get.That's just my take... and maybe I feel that way because I know that i am very observant... I work really hard at my game and take it seriously. If someone is in there and doing a half @$$ed job of playing poker... they deserve their results.

[justblaze 0]

there is an interesting story about a guy who was being cheated in the 70s by eric drache and a few other big names. at one point in the game, he asked drache "can we play fifty fifty?" "What do you mean?" "50% of the time with your marked cards, and 50% of the time with unmarked cards". The same player, when asked later on about the drug of choice in Vegas, replied "visine, because everyone is wearing contacts so they can see the card marks".