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why do donkeys always push all in on flush draws?

Guest Zach6668

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Guest Zach6668

Guest Zach6668

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Alright, I know this is only a $5 tourney, and all that, but I see this so much it is disgusting:Hand #8738700-25 at Sun2amB-011 (No Limit tournament Hold'em)Powered by UltimateBetStarted at 02/Oct/05 02:34:52 stoey is at seat 0 with 1030. hedidit is at seat 1 with 2995. FCPZachH is at seat 2 with 1060. lubbman is at seat 3 with 2150. Trigghappy is at seat 4 with 3515. Grommit67 is at seat 5 with 2290. crash1999 is at seat 6 with 1750. gbp000 is at seat 7 with 2190. stevie_ ray is at seat 8 with 805. twism7 is at seat 9 with 1920. The button is at seat 3. Trigghappy posts the small blind of 15. Grommit67 posts the big blind of 30. FCPZachH: 5s 5hPre-flop: crash1999 folds. gbp000 folds. stevie_ ray folds. twism7 folds. stoey calls. hedidit calls. FCPZachH calls. lubbman folds. Trigghappy calls. Grommit67 checks. Flop (board: 7d Jc 5d): Trigghappy checks. Grommit67 checks. stoey bets 150. hedidit folds. FCPZachH raises to 350. Trigghappy folds. Grommit67 folds. stoey goes all-in for 1000. FCPZachH calls. Tournament all-in showdown -- players show: stoey shows Kd 6d. FCPZachH shows 5s 5h. Turn (board: 7d Jc 5d 7s): (no action in this round) River (board: 7d Jc 5d 7s 7c): (no action in this round) Showdown: stoey has Kd 7d Jc 7s 7c: three sevens. FCPZachH has 5s 5h 7d 7s 7c: full house, sevens full of fives. Hand #8738700-25 Summary: No rake is taken for this hand. FCPZachH wins 2150 with full house, sevens full of fives.------------------Why do they do this? I mean, long term it pays off for me, but it boggles the mind... I know, let's put all our money in as 3-1 dog... just in case.I understand if they call, getting the right odds, but this guy keeps reraising me... Shouldn't he be drawing cheaply?I just don't get donkeys.ZachEDIT - Also, why couldn't I get this to convert, using the converter...?

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You didn't want him to get his chips in with the worst hand?..or are you just trying to understand what he was thinkin?If it's the latter, well, it is only a 5 dollar sng and he just wanted to get lucky.. but other than that, I'm afraid we'll never understand.

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Guest Zach6668

Guest Zach6668

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DOOD he had straight flush draw and over card as well sw
LOLI must have missed that runner runner straight flush draw....And in reply to the other replies, Of course I did want him to do that, but I was really trying to understand the logic, because it does happen quite often.Thanks.Zach
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scottyno

scottyno 0

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damn, I read the OP and then read all the other posts and realized everyone else stole my thunder.the fact that they push in situations like this when it is pretty clear they are going to get called and be behind is what makes them donkeys. It isnt the act of pushing with a flush draw that is a bad play, but pushing with a flush draw when you are almost certian to be called and be an underdog (you reriased the flop, indicating strength) that makes them donkeys.

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pokerplayer24

pokerplayer24 0

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Really isnt that bad of a play. Whos to say someone doesnt make that raise to 350 with top pair and folds to the push over the top. If you get called you're in a position to double up early in a tourney.In a tourney situation, especially a low buy in one with very few players you might as well gamble early on when these spots come up since you need to go so deep and aquire so many chips just to make some decent $

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Abbaddabba

Abbaddabba 0

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If you had top pair with an average kicker, would you have called this bet?When you have a set, it's easy to look at aggression from the villain as hopeless. There are many times where he gets a better hand to fold. I still wouldn't do it in that situation. It's not a "donkey" move though. It's just a _bad_ move in a low buy in tournament where people aren't capable of folding.

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jojo

jojo 0

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I have to agree witht the last comment.Moving over the top with outs is classic NL Holdem final table or 1table tournament play.If you sense weaknes , you put a guy on a decision for all his chips, with outs........this is a legitimate move.I dont want to patronize... but the idea in tournaments is to accumulate chips,with the escalating blinds, sometimes there are enough chips in the middle to justify making a play at them.The point has already been made that in a $5 sng its not such a strong move as you have to make plays against players who are capaple of folding.(either because they are weak or good).And doing this in unrestricted buy inNL cash game, unless you have a super strong read is not advised as there is no real nead to push marginal situations like this.(Although ask Doyle and he will tell you different,but i always thought that that super agressive NL play probably ony works if u have super stong reads on opponents in live play,or if it fits your general personality or table image.Or maybe Doyle wrote what he did in SS2 to get himself some action?)

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BigDMcGee

BigDMcGee 3,354

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Alright, I know this is only a $5 tourney, and all that, but I see this so much it is disgusting:Hand #8738700-25 at Sun2amB-011 (No Limit tournament Hold'em)Powered by UltimateBetStarted at 02/Oct/05 02:34:52 stoey is at seat 0 with 1030. hedidit is at seat 1 with 2995. FCPZachH is at seat 2 with 1060. lubbman is at seat 3 with 2150. Trigghappy is at seat 4 with 3515. Grommit67 is at seat 5 with 2290. crash1999 is at seat 6 with 1750. gbp000 is at seat 7 with 2190. stevie_ ray is at seat 8 with 805. twism7 is at seat 9 with 1920. The button is at seat 3. Trigghappy posts the small blind of 15. Grommit67 posts the big blind of 30. FCPZachH: 5s 5hPre-flop: crash1999 folds. gbp000 folds. stevie_ ray folds. twism7 folds. stoey calls. hedidit calls. FCPZachH calls. lubbman folds. Trigghappy calls. Grommit67 checks. Flop (board: 7d Jc 5d): Trigghappy checks. Grommit67 checks. stoey bets 150. hedidit folds. FCPZachH raises to 350. Trigghappy folds. Grommit67 folds. stoey goes all-in for 1000. FCPZachH calls. Tournament all-in showdown -- players show: stoey shows Kd 6d. FCPZachH shows 5s 5h. Turn (board: 7d Jc 5d 7s): (no action in this round) River (board: 7d Jc 5d 7s 7c): (no action in this round) Showdown: stoey has Kd 7d Jc 7s 7c: three sevens. FCPZachH has 5s 5h 7d 7s 7c: full house, sevens full of fives. Hand #8738700-25 Summary: No rake is taken for this hand. FCPZachH wins 2150 with full house, sevens full of fives.------------------Why do they do this? I mean, long term it pays off for me, but it boggles the mind... I know, let's put all our money in as 3-1 dog... just in case.I understand if they call, getting the right odds, but this guy keeps reraising me... Shouldn't he be drawing cheaply?I just don't get donkeys.ZachEDIT - Also, why couldn't I get this to convert, using the converter...?
Several reasons why. First off, ithe only way he knows it's 3-1 is if he knows you have a set, which he can't. If you have a one pair hand, he's in much better shape. second, you could be pushing a worse flush draw or a straight draw, and he has you beat. 3, you could fold. He doesn't know you have 55. 4, it's early on in a large field tourniment, and he wants to either get ahold of chips or bust out. Granted, I think his play is pretty weak, since you pretty much have to call once you make that raise. But I don't think he's the worlds biggest donkey.
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BigDMcGee

BigDMcGee 3,354

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I have to agree witht the last comment.Moving over the top with outs is classic NL Holdem final table or 1table tournament play.If you sense weaknes , you put a guy on a decision for all his chips, with outs........this is a legitimate move.I dont want to patronize... but the idea in tournaments is to accumulate chips,with the escalating blinds, sometimes there are enough chips in the middle to justify making a play at them.The point has already been made that in a $5 sng its not such a strong move as you have to make plays against players who are capaple of folding.(either because they are weak or good).And doing this in unrestricted buy inNL cash game, unless you have a super strong read is not advised as there is no real nead to push marginal situations like this.(Although ask Doyle and he will tell you different,but i always thought that that super agressive NL play probably ony works if u have super stong reads on opponents in live play,or if it fits your general personality or table image.Or maybe Doyle wrote what he did in SS2 to get himself some action?)
No, Doyle wrote that 'cause he was playing for bigging stakes then .5/1, where the pressure is really high, and when he made a 20,000 dollar raise in the 70's ( when that chapter was written) it meant something. as opposed to a 20 dollar raise. He took advantage of the tight, weak NL play. NL has changed alot since doyle first wrote that, largely because of what he wrote.
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