akishore 0 Posted September 19, 2005 Share Posted September 19, 2005 $3/$6 hold 'em, five-handedBB is a most likely TAG.don't have PT or GT+ running, but he is definitely somewhat tight and aggressive when in hands.hasn't shown down anything yet.i'm UTG with A J .i raise, CO cold-calls, ..., BB calls.(6 SB) 10 9 6 BB checks, i bet, i call, CO calls.(6 BB) A BB bets, CO folds, BB calls.(10 BB) 2 BB checks, i bet, i ...???don't say "crying call" please. talk in EV.aseem Link to post Share on other sites
screech 0 Posted September 19, 2005 Share Posted September 19, 2005 If you haven't been folding to a lot of river raises at this table, this is a fold IMO.He raised the flop, so he could be on a flush draw. He bet the turn, you raised, and he called. He's either on a draw, has a made hand that can't beat aces, or is slowplaying a hand that can beat aces.On the river, he's not going to raise a marginal hand like KT or A3. So he's either bluffing, or has a monster. I think it's extremely unlikely he pulls a river raise with a busted draw (again, unless you've obviously been folding to river raises). I don't think you're good here 1 in every 14 times. Link to post Share on other sites
Sysvr4 0 Posted September 19, 2005 Share Posted September 19, 2005 How about "calls for the purposes of developing a read" ? If this guy called me down with 22 to the river, it's worth 1 BB to know that. Extreme example, but you get the point... Jeff Link to post Share on other sites
akishore 0 Posted September 19, 2005 Author Share Posted September 19, 2005 i think my table image here matters a lot!this guy is smart enough to play only good hands, so he could easily be observant enough to know that he can possibly push me off a hand with a sticky river checkraise.i don't remember what my table image was. don't remember if i had been folding a lot to raises or bets on the river... probably not.aseem Link to post Share on other sites
screech 0 Posted September 19, 2005 Share Posted September 19, 2005 i think my table image here matters a lot!this guy is smart enough to play only good hands, so he could easily be observant enough to know that he can possibly push me off a hand with a sticky river checkraise.i don't remember what my table image was. don't remember if i had been folding a lot to raises or bets on the river... probably not.aseemIf he's a TAG, and not some retard, you can safely fold. Link to post Share on other sites
princeof56k 0 Posted September 19, 2005 Share Posted September 19, 2005 BB is a most likely TAG.don't have PT or GT+ running, but he is definitely somewhat tight and aggressive when in hands.hasn't shown down anything yet I think that last part is an important thing to consider. I'm somewhat confused as to what he would check/raise preflop, then only call a raise on the turn in order to try ANOTHER check/raise on the river. This looks like a set or an AT 2 pair. But why wouldnt he re-raise on the turn with a set? He probably makes the same amount of money or more if he does. Therefore, showing this down just to see what this guy is doing does have some value (even though I do think your beat).Also the pot on the river is 10 BB. After you bet and get raised the pot is 13 BB. Dont you have to make the call a pot that size?i'm UTG with A J .i raise, CO cold-calls, ..., BB calls.(6 SB) 10 9 6 BB checks, i bet, i call, CO calls.(6 BB) A BB bets, CO folds, BB calls.Considering that you have the A:club: and the turn is the A:club:, I'm not really sure how to play this hand. I mean what if he has the A:club: too? Link to post Share on other sites
Smasharoo 0 Posted September 19, 2005 Share Posted September 19, 2005 You could allways three-bet.That'd help your table image. Link to post Share on other sites
MrNiceGuy 0 Posted September 19, 2005 Share Posted September 19, 2005 I don't think you should have bet the river - what could he call with here that he cold-calls with preflop (but doesn't 3-bet) that you beat? The turn raise bought you a free showdown, might as well take it.Having bet, I think you should call getting 13-1 - his play looks suspect here. Why would he check-raise AQ or AK here? He can't think he'd be winning with those most of the time. Probably he has tens or nines and was afraid you'd fold to a turn bet, but maybe he's got AJ or JJ and is trying to get you to fold. Link to post Share on other sites
highsociety 0 Posted September 19, 2005 Share Posted September 19, 2005 Ok based on the info you gave, I have to rule out that this guy would have 10-10, 9-9, AK, AQ, JJ or any of these types of hands. If he is a tight and aggressive player he would have re-raised you preflop with those hands. Secondly he is in the BB and he definelty could be in there with 10-9, 10-6, 7-8 or 6-6 trying to hit a good flop and getting odds to call you preflop. He check-raises the flop because you guys are three-handed with two hearts on board and wants to push out the flush draw, which I assume is the CO because he folds the turn, which makes me think he missed his draw. Now on the turn when the Ace hits, and he bets into you and then you raise him and he flat calls, this is a weird play. I don't think he can put you on 10-10 or 9-9 especially if he holds one of those cards in his hand. I think he assumes you will call another BB on the river, so again he check-raises you trying to get maximum value for his two pair, straight or set. If he makes the third raise on the turn then you know he is very strong, but by calling he makes it appear that his hand is slightly weaker then it is and leaves you in a tough position on the river to call his check-raise again. Anyways I would call his bet on the river just to gain information on how he played the hand, so I can understand his betting patterns and play better. Link to post Share on other sites
Evenflown 0 Posted September 19, 2005 Share Posted September 19, 2005 If you have no reads on him you really have to call here, even if you know your beat by the river. You need to know what he is holding so you can know how he played his hand and use that information to your advantage when you're involved in hands with him later on. I know it's painful to have to pay a BB for information but sometimes you have to do it.And do I really need to mention your getting 13 to 1? I think your ace will be good here 1 in 13 times, at least. Link to post Share on other sites
Evenflown 0 Posted September 19, 2005 Share Posted September 19, 2005 Btw.. What was he holding? Link to post Share on other sites
princeof56k 0 Posted September 19, 2005 Share Posted September 19, 2005 i'm UTG with A J .i raise, CO cold-calls, ..., BB calls.(6 SB) 10 9 6 BB checks, i bet, i call, CO calls.(6 BB) A BB bets, CO folds, BB calls.(10 BB) 2 BB checks, i bet, i ...Akishore, in all seriousness, was the A:club: on the turn supposed to be the A:spade: ? Link to post Share on other sites
akishore 0 Posted September 19, 2005 Author Share Posted September 19, 2005 sorry, the ace was something, and all i remember was that the river was an utter brick.aseem Link to post Share on other sites
speedz99 145 Posted September 19, 2005 Share Posted September 19, 2005 I think Screech is right that you're beat, but I think it's worth a call for two reasons:1. to verify your TAG read on the villain...you said you weren't sure yet2. table image...from what I understand at shorthand 3-6 if you start taking a lot of bet/fold lines on the river you will get taken advantage ofI think #2 is the most important. I like bet/folding, but I think it is championed a bit too much around here. Link to post Share on other sites
Briguy 0 Posted September 19, 2005 Share Posted September 19, 2005 Looks like 87 to me, and BB is a bit of a mouse. He's afraid of the heart dropping or the board pairing and ruining his hand, until the river bricks. Pretty crazy river C/R, though. I think you have to call getting 13-1, even though you're most likely beat.Oops! No EV terms! Sorry. Link to post Share on other sites
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