right play in a sng tourney?

[silicon 0]

5 table SnG on Stars. We're early in the tourney and I am third or fourth in chips. UTG and SB have been playing lots of pots.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) converterSB (t1300)BB (t1390)UTG (t1440)UTG+1 (t1785)Hero (t2390)MP2 (t1365)CO (t1385)Button (t1475)Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Tc, Ts. 1 fold, UTG+1 calls t30, Hero raises to t120, 3 folds, SB calls t105, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls t90.Flop: (t390) 7s, Th, Ah (3 players)SB bets t30, UTG+1 calls t30, Hero raises to t330, SB calls t300, UTG+1 calls t300.Turn: (t1380) Qh (3 players)SB bets t360, UTG+1 calls t360, Hero calls t360.River: (t2460) 7d (3 players)SB bets t490 (All-In), UTG+1 calls t490, Hero raises to t1580, UTG+1 calls t485 (All-In).Final Pot: t5505Feel free to disagree but I felt I played the hand reasonably well. I wanted to win it after the flop with the pot sized bet but then got called. I was stuck when the third heart hit on the turn and was convinced one of my opponents had a flush. Sure enough SB bets about 25% of the pot and UTG+1 calls.I figured I had the other 10, 3 A's and 3 7's as outs and if one of them had KJ hearts then at least I could say I lost to a royal flush. That gave me 7 outs which i figured gave me the correct odds to call 360 into a pot of 2100 assuming I could get one of them to bet on the river if I hit.My question is twofold a) did I make the correct call on the turn bet?B) bearing in mind this is a tournament and missing on the river means laying down my hand being and left with a less than average stack is the smart play to lay this down and wait for a better edge?Thansk,Sil

[mk 11]

bet more on the flop, but the turn call is ok. you're priced in.

[Swift_Psycho 1]

bet more on the flop, but the turn call is ok. you're priced in.

Your flop bet wasn't "pot-sized" BTW.

[silicon 0]

It wasn't pot sized on the flop - 3/4 if I do the math right.However even with the 330 bet into a 450 pot isn't it still an incorrect call anyone on a flush draw?

[mjd 0]

It wasn't pot sized on the flop - 3/4 if I do the math right.However even with the 330 bet into a 450 pot isn't it still an incorrect call anyone on a flush draw?

No, it's a fine call for them since they have wonderful implied odds with so mayn players.You need to bet much more on this flop. I Jam it with so many other players.

[Pancake407 0]

move all in on the flop IMO.

[LPY2005 0]

I'd push all-in on the flop too. Make it too expensive for someone to draw against you and if you are lucky you might get someone with Ax thinking he has the best hand. With that flop your are extremely likely to be in the lead, but there are a lot of hands that could outdraw you.

[MDXS 0]

If this is a $1 five-table SNG on Stars, I'd push in on the flop. You're likely to get called by all sorts of hands that are way behind.

[silicon 0]

Thanks for the advice guys.BTW this was a $6 SnG on Stars - I've never played the $1 ones but find at this level people will call with anything - especially in the early rounds. I'm constantly amazed at some of the hands people show down.FYI the other two hands ended up being a straight and a pair of A's - so I was ahead on the flop and behind the straight on the turn.Cheers

[silicon 0]

In hand 6-13 of HOH Vol 1 Dan raises a similar situation to this hand. Raise preflop with 10's, flop a set with a flush draw on the board. In my case I had two callers instead of 1 but I don't feel that changes the texture of the play completely.Dan recommends betting half the flop giving the opponent 3-1 odds to call. With two opponents I upped the bet to 3/4 of the pot - making the call for both my opponents the wrong play as they are at least 4-1 to improve enough to beat me on the turn and I am giving them 7-3 on their call. Even with implied odds when they hit their hand I still think I am ahead if one or both of them call in this situation.IMO if I push all in after the flop the most likely scenario is both opponents folding which does not allow me to extract any further value from the hand.Unless I have made a grevious error in calculating the odds I just can't see the benefit of pushing here in the hopes that someone calls with Ax or a flush/straight draw. I do understand that the likelhood of someone calling with a bad hand is increased at the lower limits but I feel that good habits will pay off in the long run at any limit.Silicon

[copernicus 0]

It wasn't pot sized on the flop - 3/4 if I do the math right.However even with the 330 bet into a 450 pot isn't it still an incorrect call anyone on a flush draw?

No, it's a fine call for them since they have wonderful implied odds with so mayn players.You need to bet much more on this flop. I Jam it with so many other players.

I dont disagree with betting more, but I dont like betting huge here, and disagree about there being "wonderful implied odds". There are only two other players and the action is going to slow way down if a heart shows up on the turn, and if it doesnt your faced with needing 4/1 to call the turn and will probably be put allin, so the pot needs to be about 3600, which requires both players to play to the river. Plus your betting the whole tourney on a draw with an 80% likelihood youre out...not a good call even with the right odds, unless its a huge overlay.I think its a marginal call for a flush draw at 330 and a laydown to a pot size bet.OP played the hand well, the flop bet could have been a little higher, but not much. All in on the flop is a play for the bad beat paranoid. You want to price callers in, not out. You are a 2/1 favorite with a well disguised hand that will win a lot of chips..you need to collect in those situations in a tourney. You want the track team to call, youre more than a 2/1 favorite (considering redraws to the boat) and getting 2/1 odds if they both call...hard to turn that down.

[LPY2005 0]

OP played the hand well, the flop bet could have been a little higher, but not much. All in on the flop is a play for the bad beat paranoid. You want to price callers in, not out. You are a 2/1 favorite with a well disguised hand that will win a lot of chips..you need to collect in those situations in a tourney. You want the track team to call, youre more than a 2/1 favorite (considering redraws to the boat) and getting 2/1 odds if they both call...hard to turn that down.

I agree with this....when playing against solid players that might actually know when they are priced in or out. It's the right play to extract maximum value when you are very likely to have the best hand. However, when playing at some of the low buy-in sng's often the play that extracts the most chips is all-in. You see it all the time at these levels. When the players are better, you have to be a bit craftier to extract chips, but I adjust my play depending on my perception of the skill level at the table. I think an arguement could be made for both plays here.Another thing that often happens at these levels is people bluff by going all-in with absolutely nothing just so they look like a freakin genius when they show 8-4 offsuit. Somethiomes. people with a medium strength hand call because of this. I'll be the first to admit I'm bad beat paranoid. I play $11 sng's all the time and even there this all-in play would likely get called with a flush draw Of course, without the 7 on the river I would have suffered yet another bad beat.

[copernicus 0]

OP played the hand well, the flop bet could have been a little higher, but not much. All in on the flop is a play for the bad beat paranoid. You want to price callers in, not out. You are a 2/1 favorite with a well disguised hand that will win a lot of chips..you need to collect in those situations in a tourney. You want the track team to call, youre more than a 2/1 favorite (considering redraws to the boat) and getting 2/1 odds if they both call...hard to turn that down.

I agree with this....when playing against solid players that might actually know when they are priced in or out. It's the right play to extract maximum value when you are very likely to have the best hand. However, when playing at some of the low buy-in sng's often the play that extracts the most chips is all-in. You see it all the time at these levels. When the players are better, you have to be a bit craftier to extract chips, but I adjust my play depending on my perception of the skill level at the table. I think an arguement could be made for both plays here.Another thing that often happens at these levels is people bluff by going all-in with absolutely nothing just so they look like a freakin genius when they show 8-4 offsuit. Somethiomes. people with a medium strength hand call because of this. I'll be the first to admit I'm bad beat paranoid. I play $11 sng's all the time and even there this all-in play would likely get called with a flush draw Of course, without the 7 on the river I would have suffered yet another bad beat.

As an admitted member of the "Bad beat paranoid club" you should repeat your quote 30 times before going to bed at night. I agree though, if the level of play your facing is likely to get calls to your all in, then go for it.

[LPY2005 0]

As an admitted member of the "Bad beat paranoid club" you should repeat your quote 30 times before going to bed at night.

Do you mean Greg Raymers quote? Trust me, I repeat it often. It's very reasurring. It also allows me to type "nh" instead of "YOU CALLED ME WITH THAT SH*t YOU F*CKIN IDIOT!!!" :-)

[KEVBO 0]

In hand 6-13 of HOH Vol 1 Dan raises a similar situation to this hand. Raise preflop with 10's, flop a set with a flush draw on the board. In my case I had two callers instead of 1 but I don't feel that changes the texture of the play completely.Dan recommends betting half the flop giving the opponent 3-1 odds to call. With two opponents I upped the bet to 3/4 of the pot - making the call for both my opponents the wrong play as they are at least 4-1 to improve enough to beat me on the turn and I am giving them 7-3 on their call. Even with implied odds when they hit their hand I still think I am ahead if one or both of them call in this situation.

He also states in his book that you may want to bet a little more in online tourneys. The reason is because the blinds move up so quickly that many players don't have as much time to wait on hands and will play their marginal hands more often. In addition, this is a $6 tourney so your likely to get called w/ anything. - KEVBO -

[copernicus 0]

Dan recommends betting half the flop giving the opponent 3-1 odds to call. With two opponents I upped the bet to 3/4 of the pot - making the call for both my opponents the wrong play as they are at least 4-1 to improve enough to beat me on the turn and I am giving them 7-3 on their call. Even with implied odds when they hit their hand I still think I am ahead if one or both of them call in this situation.Silicon

I missed this before. You say you are "Giving them 7-3 on their call". That is true for the first caller only if he assumes the other player will fold..otherwise hes getting 10/3. And of course if he calls the odds do improve to 10/3 for the second caller. 3.33/1 current odds isnt a huge leap to 4/1 taking into account implied odds, so youre not necessarily pricing them out at 3/4 of the pot. (Of course in this hand you dont want to price anyone out, so 3/4 is pretty reasonable.)

[silicon 0]

I have trouble calculating the pot odds fast enough for online play - are the any charts or quick reference guides anyone can recommend?Sil

[copernicus 0]

I have trouble calculating the pot odds fast enough for online play - are the any charts or quick reference guides anyone can recommend?Sil

Do you mean calculating what the pod odds actually are or the pot odds needed in different situations?If you can count your outs its very easy to estimate the needed odds, and if you cant count your outs play a lot of free games until you can, because you cant get a sense of what other players are doing when youre focused on a chart for your own hand.Once you know the number of your outs subtract them from 48, then the pot odds you need are that number divided by your outs. Rounding is fine, since 48 is only an estimate anyway. So for example if you have a flush draw, 9 outs, 48-9 is 39, round it to 40, 40 divided by 9 is close to 40/10, so you need 4/1 odds.If there are two cards to come, just multiply the number of outs by 2 and do the same thing..this is reasonably accurate in the low-mid ranges of outs, but starts to get very inaccurate when y0u have a lot of outs.There is another formula for two card outs that is better in the higher ranges (above 7 outs I think), unfortunately I dont remember it!

[silicon 0]

That is some helpful advice. I'm pretty good at caculating the odds for my own hand but I break down in figuring how much to bet when my opponents are on drawing hands.I have it down cold for a single opponent but when multiple people are in the pot it gets more complex. Am I making any sense?Sil

[copernicus 0]

That is some helpful advice. I'm pretty good at caculating the odds for my own hand but I break down in figuring how much to bet when my opponents are on drawing hands.I have it down cold for a single opponent but when multiple people are in the pot it gets more complex. Am I making any sense?Sil

Yes..it gets much more complex because you dont know what the next player is going to do, which affects the odds of the next player and the next player and so on.Generally in a multiple opponent situation I focus more on relative stack sizes and the strength they have represented so far to see if there are any "plays" that can be made. If not then most bets would be of probing size rather than trying to price draws out. If youve got the current nuts and really want to protect it then a bet of 1.5 times the pot size should be enough to do chase all but the players with a lot of outs. OF course there is the always the fall back..all-in.

[silicon 0]

Thanks very much!

[macphec 0]

On the turn you are getting approx 6:1 pot odds ($360 to call a pot of $2100) plus great implied odds if you hit the full. (7 outs to improve to quads or full / 46 remaining cards)Odds of hitting the full or quads is approx 6.5:1Marginal call but the implied odds make up for the difference I think

[copernicus 0]

On the turn you are getting approx 6:1 pot odds ($360 to call a pot of $2100) plus great implied odds if you hit the full. (7 outs to improve to quads or full / 46 remaining cards)Odds of hitting the full or quads is approx 6.5:1Marginal call but the implied odds make up for the difference I think

You are forgetting that you are probably ahead at this point and are a favorite to stay ahead. The probability of being up against a made flush is about 9%, and the probability of being up against a higher set is less than 1%. So you are ahead 90% of the time. The bad guys have at most 10 combined outs (9 flush cards for one player, either 1 ace or 1 queen for the other player if he has a set. 2 pair doesnt give them any outs because the case T gives you quads and the 7 gives you 10s full boat over there 7s full As or 7s full Qs). If you are behind you have the 7 outs to a boat or quads of you are facing a made flush, only the 1 T if you are facing a higher set, so ignore that very small probability of being behind to a set and pulling ahead.So you are ahead at showdown 90% x 36/46 + 10% x 7/46 = 72% of the time. You can lay 72/28 implied odds, you dont need implied odds.