i don't want to fold here, should i raise or call?

[akishore 0]

$2/$4 hold 'em, six-handedmy favorite maniac is the SB. he plays 100% of his hands preflop, raises a good amount preflop, takes the vast majority to showdown (including a hand that couldn't beat ten-high), and is a super-ultra-uber-words-cant-decsribe-it donkey.two players limp, SB maniac completes, i check with J 7 .(4 SB) 10 8 3 SB bets, i ...i'm not folding, and there is no question in my mind about it.i feel there is maybe a 35% chance i have the best hand against maniac.i have been isolating this maniac pre- and post-flop all day long so far and winning soooo many pots.with jack-high (honestly, it's good enough), an overcard, a gutshot and a backdoor flush draw, it's waaaay too much hand to fold.however, i am torn on whether i should be raising here to isolate still, or if calling has merits since the pot is small and i wouldn't mind a call or two behind me. also, calling gives me cheaper information against the two behind me.fwiw, just so i don't have to put up much of an argument about this, the maniac showed down 5 2 at the end of this hand. as i said, i felt there was a VERY solid chance my jack high was best heads-up.aseem

[brando 0]

Maniacs get hands too, appearantly he's not folding, why so much emphasis on a pot this small........What's you're plan on the turn if you don't hit anything (either way you play the flop), you still gonna feel J high is good.Seems like a waste of time to me, but maybe I just don't get it

[guinevar 0]

Maniacs get hands too is the thing to remember here, aseem. Wait until you have a better edge and exploit him. Don't give him money to pass out to your opponents by guessing at jack high.

[akishore 0]

i realize what you guys are saying, but i can't help myself from pushing every possible edge i feel i have against this guy. he is literally the WORST player i have played in my LIFE, and it's not close.i reallly really really really really want to exploit as much as possible before he busts and/or leaves. when i sat down, he had $650 and he's already hovering around $200.i know what you guys are saying, but this guy is also soooooo much worse than any other possible maniac.aseem

[guinevar 0]

i realize what you guys are saying, but i can't help myself from pushing every possible edge i feel i have against this guy. he is literally the WORST player i have played in my LIFE, and it's not close.i reallly really really really really want to exploit as much as possible before he busts and/or leaves. when i sat down, he had $650 and he's already hovering around $200.i know what you guys are saying, but this guy is also soooooo much worse than any other possible maniac.aseem

The way to beat a maniac is not becoming one.

[akishore 0]

anyway, irrelevant of what happened on this flop, i folded on the turn. what really really cracked me up was when a missed flush draw villian won it on the showdown with SIX HIGH. yes, as i said, the maniac SHOWED DOWN his 5 2 offsuit. SIX HIGH won it, folks.i think my jaw broke from dropping on the floor so hard. aseem

[akishore 0]

The way to beat a maniac is not becoming one.

that's actually a really good point, but i disagree in a small extent in that i feel loosening up against tremendously bad players is important to some extent. in not doing so, you are just missing out on a tremendous amount of edge.anyway, the more i think about it, i think a call is best if i'm not folding. this way, i can fold on bad turn cards and also, it is pretty important that i have two people behind me who haven't acted yet. finally, pot is so small that it really isn't worth getting aggressive. if maniac wins this tiny pot with a worse hand, no big deal.aseem

[Pancake407 0]

hey aseem, i played a guy like that last night on party, i reraise in that spot, i was doing it all night against the guy i played. I made 20BB in about a half hour against him, he lost about 400 dollars in the hour he was at the table. with the draws, and the possibility J high is good, I reraise, and slow down if there are any more callers.

[guinevar 0]

I agree you can push edges against a maniac. Loosening up is sometimes necessary to do this.I just don't do it with Jack high with people acting behind me, most of the time. Poker is very situational and I'm not saying I would never do it, but I can't really imagine the time I would do this and not raise to isolate.Eh. 8)

[akishore 0]

hey aseem, i played a guy like that last night on party, i reraise in that spot, i was doing it all night against the guy i played. I made 20BB in about a half hour against him, he lost about 400 dollars in the hour he was at the table. with the draws, and the possibility J high is good, I reraise, and slow down if there are any more callers.

20 BBs? that's nothing man, i'm up 62 BB in an hour and a half. i guess it's the same rate, though. anyway, i'm not sure i like raising as you say. pot is tiny and we have two players behind me who haven't acted. i think this last point is pretty important that i'm not addressing.aseem

[screech 0]

I haven't read any posts yet, but given your read of this guy, you should definetly raise. If you are behind, you likely have 8.5 outs to improve (3 jacks, 4 nines, 1.5 bd flush), and maybe more if he's betting a pair lower then sevens. Also, like you said, you could have the best hand here. Easily isolation. The pot may be small, but you're winning chances aren't. And they are so much greater if you raise rather than call.

[Mattnxtc 0]

again heres another situation that shoudl be an easier flop fold and heres why...u have a good enough hand to know that you have the maniac beat...if ur heads up thats huge...heres the problem..there are 2 other people in the hand and a flush draw out on the board...they like u likely know the maniac is full of it and will call that bet...so if one or both of the limpers call do u really think there is any chance u have the best hand at that moment? of course not...which leads me to how the hand was won...the guy showed a missed flush...so with a pot of 5sbs u had 5 "clean" outs and i guess 6 with the backdoor flush darw assuming hitting a jack will hold...so u are going to have to make up 2 bets somehow while likely avoiding a flush card...The flop call isnt bad but im glad u got out on the turn un improved...who cares if a 6 high took it...wait till next time when u have a big hand and take it all back plus some

[screech 0]

Maniacs get hands too is the thing to remember here, aseem.

Everybody gets hands. This is not what you have to worry about. It's his range of betting hands. Apparently this includes 52o. Aseems hand is a monster versus the maniacs range, but not against the two opponents behind him. This is why I like a raise. It drives them out easily in a small pot. Also, if you are 3-bet, you can safely release UI on the turn.IMO you must take advantage of situations like this.

[akishore 0]

i think folding is out of the question. i have to go right now, but i'll elaborate more later.i'm still torn between raising and calling. i can see viewpoints for both, but i'm leaning towards calling.btw, i don't think any of my opponents are observant. they are all fish, very loose and very passive with the exception of one seeming gambler so far.also btw, one thing i'm not sure i can be certain about is that a raise will make the other two fold. it's usually taken me two barrels of isolation to effectively isolate this guy (raise once on the flop, he bets again on the turn and now a second raise on the turn works, etc.).anyway, the maniac just left the table. i want to cry. :cry: if not for two two-outters near the end and one sadly misplayed hand by me (i surprisingly folded a winner on the turn in a decent pot), i would be up about 70 BB. in the end, i'm up "only" about 48 BB after 80 some hands or two hours of play.this was a wet dream come true. :-) later,aseem