Sushiman 0 Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 There was a debate on the 2+2 forums on whether live 2/4 is beatable in the long run due to rake structure and (assumed) tipping. I don't know the math behind it but a 10% rake capped at $4 does not seem bad to me, possibly because of the looseness of the games at AC. Does anyone else have an opinion on this? Link to post Share on other sites
Abbaddabba 0 Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 The rake is big, but not so absurdly large that it compensates for their badness. There're 3 or 4 people contributing a big bet when they have no business in doing so (and are often drawing dead, if not, so slim that there equity is negligable) in most of the games. That more than makes up for the $4 rake per hand in itself. Link to post Share on other sites
Jelly-Filled Ace 1 Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 IMO, you get enough pre-flop action (usually 4 to 6 players) to cover the tip - and 2/4 players are 1 dollar tippers anyway. Link to post Share on other sites
looshle 6 Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 It's mathematically unbeatable because they never fold!!Ever!!They suck so much to the point that I can't beat them!!!That makes sense, right? Link to post Share on other sites
essay 0 Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 Even if you're beating the game for 2 Bets an hour it's not worth beating. Lets say you win two pots an hour tipping a dollar each time minus the 2 they rake each time you're making 2 dollars an hour.Even if you can beat it why waste your time.Hellmuth says in his Million Dollar System that you should rather buy in short stacked at a 5/10 instad of play 2/4essay Link to post Share on other sites
Sushiman 0 Posted September 3, 2005 Author Share Posted September 3, 2005 Isn't Phil Hellmuth a notorious loser at limit games? Link to post Share on other sites
PrtyPSux 0 Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 There was a debate on the 2+2 forums on whether live 2/4 is beatable in the long runlink? Link to post Share on other sites
Abbaddabba 0 Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 Even if you're beating the game for 2 Bets an hour it's not worth beating. Lets say you win two pots an hour tipping a dollar each time minus the 2 they rake each time you're making 2 dollars an hour.It is possible to beat live 2/4 tables for much more than 2 big bets an hour, even after the rake. Hellmuth says in his Million Dollar System that you should rather buy in short stacked at a 5/10 instad of play 2/4From what ive heard, hellmuth's book is full of terrible advice. Link to post Share on other sites
Suited J7 0 Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 Reasons why I believe 2/4 is beatable:1. Weak players that will put in money with bad hands. 2. A tight aggressive strategy will allow for minimum bad beats. 3. You will generally be the best player at the table. Reasons why it is not:1. People will never fold. 2. Drunk people seem to make every card. 3. It is such a low limit that beating it for only a for big bets and hour is hard. I play about 5 to 6 times a month at the Trop in AC. I cash in for $50 and I can cash out from anywhere between $75 to $200. I only play for about 4 or 5 hours at a time. I do not think my experience is enough to really give advice. This is only an opinion and probably a bad one... lol. Cheers Link to post Share on other sites
Chiggleslap 0 Posted September 4, 2005 Share Posted September 4, 2005 It's mathematically unbeatable because they never fold!!Ever!!They suck so much to the point that I can't beat them!!!That makes sense, right?Sigh...Did you forget the (sw)? Link to post Share on other sites
looshle 6 Posted September 4, 2005 Share Posted September 4, 2005 It's mathematically unbeatable because they never fold!!Ever!!They suck so much to the point that I can't beat them!!!That makes sense, right?Sigh...Did you forget the (sw)?Na, I don't use that.I lay my sarcasm on thick enough, so if you can't figure it out you probably aren't bright enough to understand much anyways.Not you personally, just in general. You can add it on for me if ya want. :-) Link to post Share on other sites
Chiggleslap 0 Posted September 4, 2005 Share Posted September 4, 2005 It's mathematically unbeatable because they never fold!!Ever!!They suck so much to the point that I can't beat them!!!That makes sense, right?Sigh...Did you forget the (sw)?Na, I don't use that.I lay my sarcasm on thick enough, so if you can't figure it out you probably aren't bright enough to understand much anyways.Not you personally, just in general. You can add it on for me if ya want. :-)Good. I sensed the thick sarcasm, but I guess I've done what I've always feared and become dependent on the (sw)... Link to post Share on other sites
brian67 0 Posted September 4, 2005 Share Posted September 4, 2005 Well in fairness it is pretty ridiculous to play a game where the rake is one bb. IMO 2-4 is beatable in the longrun regardless of how the math may make it look. The amount of dead money in every single pot is amazing. Players will call pre-flop raises with total junk hands and fold on the flop, or take those hands to the river constantly and unfortunately suck out every now and then. The only problem, and this happened to me several times, is where there are so many terrible hands drawing against your quality hands every single pot that you get sucked out on too many times to make it worthwhile. Not that it happens everytime, but it was the reason that i jumped limits pretty quickly. I personally prefer playing better players that are capable of folding, the ultra loose games are just not best for me. I agree though that playing live 2-4 is a waste of time, even if you are crushing the table you make like $30 an hour and that is probably pushing it for most people. Link to post Share on other sites
Suited_Up 2 Posted September 4, 2005 Share Posted September 4, 2005 Hey fuckers... Go play some Live 2/4 in vegas for awhile. See 8 handed flops the whole time, and then tell me whether it's beatable in the long run. I'm not so sure if it is. But maybe... but if it is... it's very slight and probably not worth the effort. Just go 8 table online.Keepin it :realplayer: Link to post Share on other sites
Chiggleslap 0 Posted September 4, 2005 Share Posted September 4, 2005 Hey fuckers... Go play some Live 2/4 in vegas for awhile. See 8 handed flops the whole time, and then tell me whether it's beatable in the long run. I'm not so sure if it is. But maybe... but if it is... it's very slight and probably not worth the effort. Just go 8 table online.Keepin it :realplayer:It's beatable. Very beatable.You just need a mammoth bankroll to fade the variance. Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings7 0 Posted September 4, 2005 Share Posted September 4, 2005 I just played 3/6 last night which is almost exactly the same as 2/4 in regards to the skill level of players and expected earnings. It is almost impossible to beat for any real earnings. My session was roughly 5 hours and I ended up losing about $100 and my best game is online limit hold 'em. The low limits and the unwillingness of anyone on the table to fold preflop kills your chances of taking a pot away with skill so your basically just hoping your high pocket pair holds up or your AK hits the flop or your out. I will tell you right now that I will never play that low limit again live. I suggest going up to 5/10 or ever 10/20 before playing that junk. Noone on the table was even doing well for the 5 hours I was playing. Everyone would in a big pot then lose it to another guy on the next hand. Just not my cup of tea I guess. Link to post Share on other sites
7s7c 0 Posted September 4, 2005 Share Posted September 4, 2005 I would be curious to hear KingODiamonds take on this thread as he is the best live 2/4 player I have ever seen. Link to post Share on other sites
Sushiman 0 Posted September 4, 2005 Author Share Posted September 4, 2005 I just played 3/6 last night which is almost exactly the same as 2/4 in regards to the skill level of players and expected earnings. It is almost impossible to beat for any real earnings. My session was roughly 5 hours and I ended up losing about $100 and my best game is online limit hold 'em. The low limits and the unwillingness of anyone on the table to fold preflop kills your chances of taking a pot away with skill so your basically just hoping your high pocket pair holds up or your AK hits the flop or your out. I will tell you right now that I will never play that low limit again live. I suggest going up to 5/10 or ever 10/20 before playing that junk. Noone on the table was even doing well for the 5 hours I was playing. Everyone would in a big pot then lose it to another guy on the next hand. Just not my cup of tea I guess.By "taking a pot away with your skill" do you mean bluffing raising the river? Because yea, I'm pretty sure that wouldn't work. And if by "playing that junk" you mean high pockets then yes I guess I should start folding AA preflop as it is a +EV move. If your best game is really online limit holdem then maybe you should realize that one 5 hr session (maybe 300 hands live) allows for no judgement on any level of play. Maybe you ran bad, maybe people got lucky, or maybe you just donked away $100 and are too stubborn to admit it. Btw, does jamming the pot with unimproved AK really win money at 10/20? Link to post Share on other sites
UglyJimStudly 0 Posted September 4, 2005 Share Posted September 4, 2005 Go play some Live 2/4 in vegas for awhile. See 8 handed flops the whole time, and then tell me whether it's beatable in the long run. I'm not so sure if it is.I've never played in Vegas, but I played live 2/4 a couple of times a week for six months this year in Vancouver and showed a profit. Enough to build my bankroll to play 4/8, anyway. It's possible I got a lucky swing of variance, of course, but seeing all these "I played once and got beat because too many people play badly" posts makes me think that not a lot of the naysayers are in much of a position to speak to variance concerns.So is live 2/4 beatable? Yeah, I think so. Not for enough to make a living, and it's not a level any but the most casual player should stay at forever, but still beatable despite that. Link to post Share on other sites
brian67 0 Posted September 4, 2005 Share Posted September 4, 2005 I just played 3/6 last night which is almost exactly the same as 2/4 in regards to the skill level of players and expected earnings. It is almost impossible to beat for any real earnings. My session was roughly 5 hours and I ended up losing about $100 and my best game is online limit hold 'em. The low limits and the unwillingness of anyone on the table to fold preflop kills your chances of taking a pot away with skill so your basically just hoping your high pocket pair holds up or your AK hits the flop or your out. I will tell you right now that I will never play that low limit again live. I suggest going up to 5/10 or ever 10/20 before playing that junk. Noone on the table was even doing well for the 5 hours I was playing. Everyone would in a big pot then lose it to another guy on the next hand. Just not my cup of tea I guess.Playing in position and not playing marginal hands becomes much more important. You can easily show profit in these games if you know what you are doing. I haven't played in vegas, but the 2-4 and 3-6 that i have played have been some incredibly loose games. Seven way capped pre flop pots are not uncommon. At the same time though, you can sit down and not play a hand for an hour and still get plenty of action when you do. You simply have to play more selectively with your hand selection and the spots you choose to push hands. Personally i don't like 2-4 and 3-6 because i don't like having to take every single hand to a showdown. I like getting my fair share of uncontested pots. Link to post Share on other sites
....Ian.... 0 Posted September 4, 2005 Share Posted September 4, 2005 the week b4 i evacutaed for the hurricane i was beating teh 3-6 at harrahs NO for 40-50 BB in 4 hour sessions for about 6 sessions str8thats AFTER tips for occasional cokes and tipping ONE dollar each won pot.i would imagine 2-4 is beatable. Link to post Share on other sites
wrto4556 0 Posted September 4, 2005 Share Posted September 4, 2005 its unbeatable. Just like OP said, between all the rake and tips, you're left whith shit.You tip the cocktail, you tip the dealer and the valet. And get a full BB taken out of each pot. Link to post Share on other sites
Dixie Wrecked 0 Posted September 4, 2005 Share Posted September 4, 2005 If you cant beat 2/4 even with the rake, tipping, etc, you better start looking for a new hobby or at least a different game other than LHE. Link to post Share on other sites
RonnyMemphis 0 Posted September 4, 2005 Share Posted September 4, 2005 For everyone who says they dont like loose low limit games because too many players play trash to the river, perhaps you ought to take a look at your own skills, because there is alot of money to be made in these games. In fact you will make far more in this type of game than you will when youre in a game where your opponents know how to fold. It boils down to an unwillingness to change gears and play poker a little differently. You want to be able to bluff pots, because thats the way you play. Maybe you should consider changing the way you play to suit the situation? Link to post Share on other sites
Royal_Tour 0 Posted September 4, 2005 Share Posted September 4, 2005 Hey fuckers... Go play some Live 2/4 in vegas for awhile. See 8 handed flops the whole time, and then tell me whether it's beatable in the long run. I'm not so sure if it is. But maybe... but if it is... it's very slight and probably not worth the effort. Just go 8 table online.Keepin it :realplayer:not 100% sure on this i only played NL in vegas, and cleaned up. but my limit games at the local B&M in ontario, yes 2/4 or 2/5 as we play is very beatable.but it takes time, and is only beatable over a long run, meaning might come out ahead 4/7 times you go and sit down Link to post Share on other sites
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