brent johnson

[digitalmonkey 929]

Cloutier worst starter in league? He is not the best, but would be better than at least 10 other teams.

Name them

Teams that would rather have Cloutier than their starter:NY Rangers (Weekes)Atlanta (No named starter)LA Kings (No named starter)Minnesota Wild (Roloson)Washington (Kolzig)Carolina (No named starter)Philadelphia (Esche)Tampa Bay (Grahame)Edmonton (Markkanen)That's nine that would jettison their current goalie in a heartbeat to get Cloutier, you could make a case to add Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Anaheim, and Montreal to the list as well.

Take out Roloson! He is a much better goalie than Cloutier. You also need to shake your head if you think Montreal would give up Theodore for Cloutier. LOL

[ajs510 122]

I shook my head at the fact that Montreal wanted to ditch Theodore in favor of Luongo. There's no denying that he's fallen from favor there, why I have no idea. Roloson used to be Hasek's backup in Buffalo, I've never been impressed with him.

[digitalmonkey 929]

I shook my head at the fact that Montreal wanted to ditch Theodore in favor of Luongo. There's no denying that he's fallen from favor there, why I have no idea. Roloson used to be Hasek's backup in Buffalo, I've never been impressed with him.

He's "fallen from favor" because he wants a no trade clause. Regardless, he is still a much better goalie than Cloutier and any GM would choose Theodore over Cloutier. No doubt! "Hasek used to be Belfour's backup in Chicago, I was never impressed with him," said a Chicago Blackhawk fan to me about 13 years ago.

[ajs510 122]

I shook my head at the fact that Montreal wanted to ditch Theodore in favor of Luongo. There's no denying that he's fallen from favor there, why I have no idea. Roloson used to be Hasek's backup in Buffalo, I've never been impressed with him.

He's "fallen from favor" because he wants a no trade clause. Regardless, he is still a much better goalie than Cloutier and any GM would choose Theodore over Cloutier. No doubt! "Hasek used to be Belfour's backup in Chicago, I was never impressed with him," said a Chicago Blackhawk fan to me about 13 years ago.

Fair point, but Roloson is no Hasek. Any idea if it's possible to determine who will be starting in goal for a particular team on a particular night? If so, how?

[WestcoastCanuck 0]

Not sure he deserves his own thread, but Johnson just signed with the Canucks: http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?id=135234And Cloutier is better than a lot of goalies, I'll add to AJs list later.

[InsanityCubed 0]

Cloutier worst starter in league? He is not the best, but would be better than at least 10 other teams.

Name them

Teams that would rather have Cloutier than their starter:NY Rangers (Weekes)Atlanta (No named starter)LA Kings (No named starter)Minnesota Wild (Roloson)Washington (Kolzig)Carolina (No named starter)Philadelphia (Esche)Tampa Bay (Grahame)Edmonton (Markkanen)That's nine that would jettison their current goalie in a heartbeat to get Cloutier, you could make a case to add Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Anaheim, and Montreal to the list as well.

Markkanen is not Edmonton's starter. It's Ty Conklin, who's about on par with Cloutier, Weekes, Kolzig, Roloson, and Esche are all ahead of Cloutier, and Atlanta (Lehtonen) would not be dropping the most highly touted goalie prospect in years for a playoff choke artist.P.S. Roloson was part of taking a team to the West Finals, so he's hardly "Hasek's former backup". Hasek was overrated and lucky anyways, and I'd actually put Ottawa on the Cloutier list if not for Ray Emery being about on par with Cloutier.

[WestcoastCanuck 0]

Hasek was overrated and lucky anyways, and I'd actually put Ottawa on the Cloutier list if not for Ray Emery being about on par with Cloutier.

You can't be serious about this. It goes like this: Hasek>Cloutier>Emery.Calling Hasek lucky at hockey is like saying Daniel is lucky at Poker. You can't be that lucky for that long.Cloutier has had one excellent playoff series (against St. Louis), one awful series (against Minnesota, where he was playing hurt), one subpar series (against Deroit. He was excelling until he pulled a Tommy Salo) and one series where was once again excelling but got hurt (Calgary). His biggest hurdle, IMO, isn't the playoffs, it is staying healthy. Crawford always seems to throw the backup under a bus by mid February. If Cloutier could stick to 50 injury free games, he is in good shape. He is to good of an athlete to not succeed.

[InsanityCubed 0]

Hasek was overrated and lucky anyways, and I'd actually put Ottawa on the Cloutier list if not for Ray Emery being about on par with Cloutier.

You can't be serious about this. It goes like this: Hasek>Cloutier>Emery.Calling Hasek lucky at hockey is like saying Daniel is lucky at Poker. You can't be that lucky for that long.Cloutier has had one excellent playoff series (against St. Louis), one awful series (against Minnesota, where he was playing hurt), one subpar series (against Deroit. He was excelling until he pulled a Tommy Salo) and one series where was once again excelling but got hurt (Calgary). His biggest hurdle, IMO, isn't the playoffs, it is staying healthy. Crawford always seems to throw the backup under a bus by mid February. If Cloutier could stick to 50 injury free games, he is in good shape. He is to good of an athlete to not succeed.

I really don't want to get into the Hasek thing, I have an undying hatred for him since he stole Vezinas from Marty, so I'll leave it be. Cloutier has been to the 2nd round.... once? And lost? He's never carried the team when it's been needed, and he's never had playoff success. If having a decent regular season and maybe winning a round or two is your idea of success, then you're cheering for the wrong team. Cloutier's been around the NHL for a while now, and he's proven that he's nothing more than a serviceable #1.5 Not quite a top flight starter, but not quite bad enough to be a backup.

[jack24bauer24 0]

Cloutier worst starter in league? He is not the best, but would be better than at least 10 other teams.

Name them

Teams that would rather have Cloutier than their starter:NY Rangers (Weekes)Atlanta (No named starter)LA Kings (No named starter)Minnesota Wild (Roloson)Washington (Kolzig)Carolina (No named starter)Philadelphia (Esche)Tampa Bay (Grahame)Edmonton (Markkanen)That's nine that would jettison their current goalie in a heartbeat to get Cloutier, you could make a case to add Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Anaheim, and Montreal to the list as well.

Markkanen is not Edmonton's starter. It's Ty Conklin, who's about on par with Cloutier, Weekes, Kolzig, Roloson, and Esche are all ahead of Cloutier, and Atlanta (Lehtonen) would not be dropping the most highly touted goalie prospect in years for a playoff choke artist.P.S. Roloson was part of taking a team to the West Finals, so he's hardly "Hasek's former backup". Hasek was overrated and lucky anyways, and I'd actually put Ottawa on the Cloutier list if not for Ray Emery being about on par with Cloutier.

Are you insane? Have you ever watched hockey before? To compare Cloutier to Theodore is about the dumbest thing I've ever read. To compare him to Esche is insanely ridiculous.Cloutier has proven he's pathetic in the playoffs, when it matters most, never, EVER carrying his team when it needed him.You don't have a clue.

[ajs510 122]

Are you insane? Have you ever watched hockey before? To compare Cloutier to Theodore is about the dumbest thing I've ever read. To compare him to Esche is insanely ridiculous.Cloutier has proven he's pathetic in the playoffs, when it matters most, never, EVER carrying his team when it needed him.You don't have a clue.

2003-04 Regular SeasonJose Theodore - 67 Games started, 33 Games Won, 150 Goals against, 2.27 GAA, .919 SV%, 6 shutouts.Robert Esche - 40 Games started, 21 Games Won, 79 Goals against, 2.04 GAA, .915 SV%, 3 shutouts.Dan Cloutier - 60 Games started, 33 Games Won, 134 Goals against, 2.27 GAA, .914 SV%, 5 shutouts. 2003-04 PlayoffsJose Theodore - 11 Games started, 4 games won, 27 goals against, 2.38 GAA, .922 SV%, 1 shutout. (Had no answer for the Lightning in Round 2, the Habs were swept).Robert Esche - 18 games started, 11 games won, 41 goals against, 2.31 GAA, .918 SV%, 1 shutout. (Flyers lost to the Lightning in the Eastern Conference Final, 4-3).Dan Cloutier - 3 Games started, 1 Game Won (injured in the third period of Game 3, which they won), 5 goals against, 2.17 GAA, .922 SV%, No shutouts (Canucks went on to lose the series in 7 games without him)Stats don't lie, Esche and Cloutier both had their career best seasons in 2003-04, and their stats were very similar. Theodore had his second best year ever, and only managed the exact same number of wins as Cloutier in 7 extra starts. We'll never know what would have happened in the playoffs for Vancouver if Cloutier hadn't gone down with a knee injury, considering that Kiprusoff absolutely stood on his head throughout the playoffs it probably wouldn't have made that much difference. Do you think maybe I pay a little bit of attention to hockey now? Anytime you want your mouth thrown back in your face, feel free to come back for more, m'kay pumpkin? Or you could just do everyone a favor, go back to your "24" DVD's, and shut the fu[/size]ck up. That would work...

[InsanityCubed 0]

Are you insane? Have you ever watched hockey before? To compare Cloutier to Theodore is about the dumbest thing I've ever read. To compare him to Esche is insanely ridiculous.Cloutier has proven he's pathetic in the playoffs, when it matters most, never, EVER carrying his team when it needed him.You don't have a clue.

2003-04 Regular SeasonJose Theodore - 67 Games started, 33 Games Won, 150 Goals against, 2.27 GAA, .919 SV%, 6 shutouts.Robert Esche - 40 Games started, 21 Games Won, 79 Goals against, 2.04 GAA, .915 SV%, 3 shutouts.Dan Cloutier - 60 Games started, 33 Games Won, 134 Goals against, 2.27 GAA, .914 SV%, 5 shutouts. 2003-04 PlayoffsJose Theodore - 11 Games started, 4 games won, 27 goals against, 2.38 GAA, .922 SV%, 1 shutout. (Had no answer for the Lightning in Round 2, the Habs were swept).Robert Esche - 18 games started, 11 games won, 41 goals against, 2.31 GAA, .918 SV%, 1 shutout. (Flyers lost to the Lightning in the Eastern Conference Final, 4-3).Dan Cloutier - 3 Games started, 1 Game Won (injured in the third period of Game 3, which they won), 5 goals against, 2.17 GAA, .922 SV%, No shutouts (Canucks went on to lose the series in 7 games without him)Stats don't lie, Esche and Cloutier both had their career best seasons in 2003-04, and their stats were very similar. Theodore had his second best year ever, and only managed the exact same number of wins as Cloutier in 7 extra starts. We'll never know what would have happened in the playoffs for Vancouver if Cloutier hadn't gone down with a knee injury, considering that Kiprusoff absolutely stood on his head throughout the playoffs it probably wouldn't have made that much difference. Do you think maybe I pay a little bit of attention to hockey now? Anytime you want your mouth thrown back in your face, feel free to come back for more, m'kay pumpkin? Or you could just do everyone a favor, go back to your "24" DVD's, and shut the fu[/size]ck up. That would work...

As much as I hate to question your knowledge, it's stupid to compare goalies based on one season. While Theo had one great season, followed by a mediocre one and a good one, he has still proven himself to be a NHL goaltender, while I don't think Cloutier has. He's never carried his team to the playoffs, nor has he been a deciding factor in any playoff series. Theo has pulled the Habs from nowhere a few times, and Esche almost single handedly beat the Devils in '04. Esche is unproven as well, but at least he's done SOMETHING in the playoffs, whereas Cloutier has yet to show himself as a quality NHL goalie, IMO.

[ajs510 122]

Ergo, it's stupid to make the claim that Esche and Theodore are far and away superior goalies? Seeing as Esche only has one season as a starting goalie under his belt and Theodore hasn't exactly been the model of consistency? That was really my only point, I know you can't make a true comparison based on only one season, hence my note about Cloutier and Esche both having career seasons and all three having very similar stats.

[digitalmonkey 929]

A big, but often overlooked factor regarding goaltenders is whether or not their team has confidence in them. Grant Fuhr comes to mind as one of the best. Watching the Edmonton Oilers play in the 80's, you just know that they know Fuhr is not letting in the next goal. Billy Smith had it, Patrick Roy had it most of the time, Brodeur has it and a few of the young goalies in the league have it. Dan Cloutier does not have it. I would love to speak to a Canuck player off the record and ask them what they really think of Cloutier as a goalie.

[ajs510 122]

Considering that they're paying the salaries of three competant backups, I'd say their confidence isn't very high...

[BigCountry 0]

Well, I would decide by trying to figure out which start is most likely to falter for these backups. In my opinion that is Lalime. In which case I would go with Reinhard Divis

See Lalime really blows. He was released yesterday. hahahahhaI was wrong about the backup though.

[digitalmonkey 929]

Well, I would decide by trying to figure out which start is most likely to falter for these backups. In my opinion that is Lalime. In which case I would go with Reinhard Divis

See Lalime really blows. He was released yesterday. hahahahhaI was wrong about the backup though.

Which was really the major point of the conversation!

[BigCountry 0]

Well, I would decide by trying to figure out which start is most likely to falter for these backups. In my opinion that is Lalime. In which case I would go with Reinhard Divis

See Lalime really blows. He was released yesterday. hahahahhaI was wrong about the backup though.

Which was really the major point of the conversation!

Well, I didn't bother looking at who the backups for Lalime where. I just know that Lalime is a donkey!

[ajs510 122]

I don't think you can really pin the Blues failures on Lalime, they're just a terrible team overall. Curtis Sanford has started 7 games and won just two of them, it would be a different story if they were a remarkably better team without Lalime in net. This wasn't the same situation you saw in Pittsburgh where everyone knew that Marc Fleury would make the team better, this was just the Blues cashing in their chips and deciding they weren't going to pay more $$$ for Lalime. He'll catch on somewhere, he really isn't a bad goalie and there's a few teams that need help in net right now (watch the wires for news of the big Luongo/Aebischer/Giguere trade for an idea of where Lalime will end up).

[strategy 4]

I don't think you can really pin the Blues failures on Lalime, they're just a terrible team overall. Curtis Sanford has started 7 games and won just two of them, it would be a different story if they were a remarkably better team without Lalime in net. This wasn't the same situation you saw in Pittsburgh where everyone knew that Marc Fleury would make the team better, this was just the Blues cashing in their chips and deciding they weren't going to pay more $$$ for Lalime. He'll catch on somewhere, he really isn't a bad goalie and there's a few teams that need help in net right now (watch the wires for news of the big Luongo/Aebischer/Giguere trade for an idea of where Lalime will end up).

Actually, I got the impression that Blues management was pretty peeved over how Lalime handled himself after the loss to the Rangers. Postgame, Kitchen singled Lalime out as the reason for the loss (the one in OT was ridiculous) and Lalime disagreed in his statements to the media.I love Sanford. He's a solid goaltender and he really has played better than Lalime. Supposedly we should know if he's been picked up by now. I can't imagine he'll clear waivers, but he might.

[ajs510 122]

. I can't imagine he'll clear waivers, but he might.

This is actually the only thing similar about the Thibeault waiving, no team is going to pick up a disgraced goalie from Waivers at his present salary. He'll clear and then the Blues will try to trade him. No one is desperate enough for a goalie to pay Lalime his current salary ($2.4 million) when he's been struggling all season (his fault or otherwise). He'll probably clear Waivers and get traded to Columbus or Edmonton for some defensive help.

[strategy 4]

. I can't imagine he'll clear waivers, but he might.

This is actually the only thing similar about the Thibeault waiving, no team is going to pick up a disgraced goalie from Waivers at his present salary. He'll clear and then the Blues will try to trade him. No one is desperate enough for a goalie to pay Lalime his current salary ($2.4 million) when he's been struggling all season (his fault or otherwise). He'll probably clear Waivers and get traded to Columbus or Edmonton for some defensive help.

I just read that he has a $2.4M salary. I thought it was much lower, but I guess I was thinking of Osgood. Yeah, I guess we can expect him to clear waivers.It's ****ing stupid that the Blues traded Boguniecki. Their troubles are largest up front and they don't need to trade a promising winger for an aging defenseman.

[WestcoastCanuck 0]

This is actually the only thing similar about the Thibeault waiving' date=' no team is going to pick up a disgraced goalie from Waivers at his present salary. He'll clear and then the Blues will try to trade him. No one is desperate enough for a goalie to pay Lalime his current salary ($2.4 million) when he's been struggling all season (his fault or otherwise). He'll probably clear Waivers and get traded to Columbus or Edmonton for some defensive help.[/quote']I just read that he has a $2.4M salary. I thought it was much lower, but I guess I was thinking of Osgood. Yeah, I guess we can expect him to clear waivers.It's censored stupid that the Blues traded Boguniecki. Their troubles are largest up front and they don't need to trade a promising winger for an aging defenseman.

I agree it was a silly trade, but Boguniecki isn't exactly a young stud.Looking back at this thread, two things come to mind.I can't believe Hasek was called a "lucky" goalie, and Cloutier hasn't exactly lived up to the 50 injury free games I was hoping for

[strategy 4]

I agree it was a silly trade, but Boguniecki isn't exactly a young stud.

A good point. You really confused me by leaving my text out of quotes--this munro fellow sure does write a lot like me!

[WestcoastCanuck 0]

:oops:

[BuffaloBlair 0]

Cloutier worst starter in league? He is not the best, but would be better than at least 10 other teams.

Name them

Teams that would rather have Cloutier than their starter:NY Rangers (Weekes)Atlanta (No named starter)LA Kings (No named starter)Minnesota Wild (Roloson)Washington (Kolzig)Carolina (No named starter)Philadelphia (Esche)Tampa Bay (Grahame)Edmonton (Markkanen)That's nine that would jettison their current goalie in a heartbeat to get Cloutier, you could make a case to add Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Anaheim, and Montreal to the list as well.

Maybe i'm blind but nobody commented on the Rangers? Weekes hasnt been the starter for at least a month, have you heard of a super rookie by the name of Henrik Lundqvist? I'm six hours out of vancouver and a fan and cloutier going down is the 2nd best thing that could've happened to them (1st would be trading him...and bertuzzi but thats another story)