presto in a big pot

[Actuary 3]

MP2 & MP3 are both Semi Loose Agr..and MP2 is really Agg Post flop..datamined 125 hands...not actually played with much, maybe 15 hands...Generally table is playing loose, lotts marginaly marginal showdownsParty Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converterPreflop: Actuary is UTG+1 with 5h, 5c. UTG calls, Actuary calls, 2 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, SB calls, UTG calls, Actuary calls.getting 8:1 effectively calling 2 cold back, if its capped and called by allFlop: (25 SB) 2d, Jh, 7s (6 players)SB checks, UTG checks, Actuary checks, MP2 bets, MP3 folds, CO folds, SB calls, UTG folds, Actuary calls.easy call, ragged flop. Both outs still alive..HUGE POTTurn: (14 BB) 9d (3 players)SB checks, Actuary checks, MP2 bets, SB folds, Actuary calls.Both 5's are still looking good.From this point on my thinking is1. He may have AK / AQs2. I may get a 5 on the river..for 2 bets3. Mp2 is 25/9/54. Big PotI thought the 4 reasons made it a good callRiver: (16 BB) 6d (2 players)Actuary checks, MP2 bets, Actuary calls.this was a little spew..but I cannot fold just in case its AK...maybe I should, but I probably never will with a pot this big.Final Pot: 18 BBCritique anything...I'd perticularly like to know what u think of1. The pre-flop call of two cold back to me2. Turn and River calls.

[Smasharoo 0]

I fold this to the two cold pre-flop.Even getting 8 to 1.good luck.

[Actuary 3]

I fold this to the two cold pre-flop.Even getting 8 to 1.good luck.

that's nuts!nah, really..Are you discounting the likelihood that a set of 5's would even win, in this capped 6 way pot? That would suck; but I usually assume a set will win for all intents and purposes.

[Smasharoo 0]

that's nuts!nah, really..Are you discounting the likelihood that a set of 5's would even win, in this capped 6 way pot? That would suck; but I usually assume a set will win for all intents and purposes.I'm saying I want to flop sets and get action against top pair. I don't want to flop sets and get action from oversets.

[Abbaddabba 0]

Does it change if either of the pfr's are maniacs? (a maniac could be raising or 3betting with a large range of hands, and a solid player may 3bet a maniac with a slightly larger range of hands)You're clearly better off calling 2 additional bets after having limped than you are cold calling two, if everything else in the hand is identical - and either player being a maniac broadens the range of hands you can put them on quite a bit.Of course, that begs the question - are you going to call 2 bets cold with a low or mid pocket pair, even if you know you're going to get 5 way action (or more)?

[Amadeus 0]

I don't really like the way you played it. I would have been out before the flop when it came back to me for 2 more bets and the initial raiser is left to act. Calling on the flop is ok but once you missed on the turn I can't see any reason for calling anymore. You don't have the odds to draw to 2 outs and with 6 people taking the flop for 4 bets you have to assume that 55 is no good.

[Abbaddabba 0]

Im pretty sure he does have odds to draw to 2 outs for 1 small bet, supposing they're clean and the opponents redraws are weak.After the turn, probably not.

[pokerplayer24 0]

The problem with this pot isn't that you called 2 cold but that after that flop you couldnt get away. Mp2 capped preflop then bet it all the way. There is no way AK bets that turn or river. Being out of position also makes this hand much more difficult to play. I think I dump 55 on the flop or at the very least on the turn.

[Actuary 3]

MP is super agg Post Flop, note his stats..he easily bets AK all the way down. Notice no one is riasing after the flop? Of course he still bets AK.On the flop..fold? are u kidding?Plus its ragged, and I may not have ot worry about a higher set...flush or str8Fold preflop to 2 bets..thats reasonable..but..this table so loose, I'm likey not against AA & KK & QQ & JJ & AK....so some overs are safe when my 5 hitsFold the Turn or River..ok..but not the flop for 1 sb.Please notice the pot size.I'm only calling down on the River in case its AK...getting 17:1...cant fold..but I could see it being an good option..Turn call is assuming outs still alive, some chance of eeking out an extra bet, and maybe AK...as I've noted. Mp2 bets anything...AK, AQ..here. He's not giving up the pot..not check/call kinda guy.thanks you for all the crtiques.edit: II'm not oop with respect to the aggressor post flop, btw. I"m closing the action.

[Abbaddabba 0]

The flop bet is marginal, but probably alright.After that, it's folded to you on the turn - with only the PFR left in. If you think there's a good chance he'd be betting it the whole way with a strong ace, you dont really need to ask if it's a good call. How good the call is depends entirely on how good the read is, which is something we cant really judge from the hand history.

[Actuary 3]

The flop bet is marginal, but probably alright.

wrong. (imo) I'm getting 27:1 , and my outs can't be discounted that much.The rest I agree with, it dependsPartly, its anti-tilt, can't fold the turn in case a 5 shows up... (Edit: oops, I gues I don't see a river if I fold, its just 2 of us, still..it would get me :oops: )River geting 17:1...just me...and looking at his PFA of 5.edit: Hindsight..I play it the same..and wish I could fold the river..but likely never would, against this villan. (more than 120 handds, though..would be better)

[Abbaddabba 0]

You're getting 27:1 and you're, what, 22 : 1 to make your hand on the turn? Clearly you're getting the correct price, but it's not like you're huge there. On the plus side, you're closing action and neither of the cards you need will complete anything bigger.Still most of the value from calling is from the fact that there's a good chance you're ahead.

[Actuary 3]

You're getting 27:1 and you're, what, 22 : 1 to make your hand on the turn?     Clearly you're getting the correct price, but it's not like you're huge there.  

plus at least 4 more SB if I hit..so my overlay is almose 50%, 31:1 vs 22:1..and I'm probably going to see the river..makes it not even close.In my opinion.

[wrto4556 0]

folding preflop is pretty bad.I would fold the turn, though.

[screech 0]

This is one of those one call leads to another call leads to another...Preflop call is fine. In SSHE it says you should call when it's two bets back to you with hands like 88.Flop is ok.Against this aggressive opponent, the turn is ok too. If we put his 3-betting hand range on AA-99, AK, and AQs, you have an easy call, assuming he plays these hands the same way (which most aggressive opponents will).40% of the time you are ahead and have him drawing to 6 outs. (AK, AQs)12% of the time you are drawing dead. (JJ, 99)48% of the time you are drawing to 2 outs. (AA, KK, QQ, TT)Even if we weight these numbers more on the conservative side we have an easy call.35% x 86% (38 out of 44 good cards) = 30%12% x 0% = 0%48% x 5% = 2%Our total winning chances are about 32% or one third of the time. My first instinct was to fold the turn because we're probably agianst an overpair and drawing slim. While that's true, we are up agianst AK/AQs more than enough to make folding here a huge mistake.On the river, you have to call given your aggressive nature of your opponent and the huge size of the pot. Sure, the chances that he's still betting with AK/AQs have just plummeted, but he only has to bet these hands about 6% of the time for you to show profit. One call, leads to another...

[Actuary 3]

I've told u before how I think you have great insight.

[Randy Reed 0]

Ok, I'm learning here like the rest, but let me give some thoughts. Although SSHE does say it's OK to limp in loose games with LPOP, it's strictly for value if you hit a set. The problem with 2 Lags to act as you noted is that you will likely end up spewing like you did chasing your 2 outer. Is that really where you want to be? Is this +EV? With a 2 Lag's acting as you described and only undercards, even on a ragged flop it doesn't discount that he hit a card on the board, Axs, or any pair, there is still alot of hands out that make hitting the set a necessity to winning, and chasing 22-1 odds hands is spewing IMHO. Getting odds is OK, but do we need to put ourselves in this position anyway? 3 betting a small pocket pair, out of position, against a large field?

[screech 0]

I've told u before how I think you have great insight.

Thanks. I could be missing something, but those numbers don't lie.

The problem with 2 Lags to act as you noted is that you will likely end up spewing like you did chasing your 2 outer. Is that really where you want to be?

If we're playing to hit a set, we want our opponents to be lags. If you think that you'll end up spewing chasing a 2 outer, than your not thinking about poker the correct way. At no point in the hand was Actuary spewing chasing a 2 outer. On the flop, he was clearly getting the odds he needed to hit a set. Even on the small chance he was drawing dead to a set of jacks, there was enough overlay in the pot to chase his two outer. On the turn, this becomes a much easier fold if the SB calls. Once he folds, our winning chances go way up. We are no longer just chasing a two outer - we have a decent chance of having the best hand at showdown. How many people here would bet this turn with AK?

With a 2 Lag's acting as you described and only undercards, even on a ragged flop it doesn't discount that he hit a card on the board, Axs, or any pair, there is still alot of hands out that make hitting the set a necessity to winning,

Sure, SB could have a hand like Ax, but he folded so we don't have to worry about him anymore. MP 3-betted the flop, which could mean a lot of things. Usually, it means pretty solid values, even with a lag. If you want to increase his 3-betting range to include hands like AJ or A9s, you also have to include hands like AQo, KQo, and AT. This would make calling the turn even more correct.

Getting odds is OK, but do we need to put ourselves in this position anyway?

Again, you should not think about poker this way. Just because you may have to make some difficult decisions down the road, does not mean you should avoid playing certain hands. If a play is +EV it's +EV. Getting odds is not just OK, it's great! I love odds. :-) Should we stop 3-betting AQ from the SB when it's folded to the button who raises because we'll be OOP and he may have us crushed this time? :wink:

[Abbaddabba 0]

The problem with 2 Lags to act as you noted is that you will likely end up spewing like you did chasing your 2 outer.

It isn't spewing chips if you think that there's a good possibility he's leading out on all streets with overcards.If anyone else at the table started giving him action throughout the hand, it's a pretty easy fold (unless it's on the flop, and he already has one small bet already called - then it's worth calling for the 2 outs but folding the turn if he misses).

[screech 0]

If anyone else at the table started giving him action throughout the hand, it's a pretty easy fold

That's what makes this hand so strange. Very rarely are we ever going to show down a pair of fives in a multiway pot that was capped preflop. But the way this hand played out, we have to.

[Rocketwadster 0]

I don't think there is a problem with any of your math, but look how much you have invested in those fives in the hopes that your opponent has a hand like ace king...I am notorious (in my own mind at least) for taking my mediocre hands too far in the HOPES that my opponent didn't have something that was beating me from the git-go...Hope you ended up winning that hand...

[Abbaddabba 0]

The difference between this call and the call from most poor players is that you're ONLY getting action from the preflop raiser, who is often making these exact moves with strong overcards.With even a single raise, you dump the hand immediately at any point.How much has he invested? One additional dollar to take down nearly a $20 pot by the river. But then, he wasnt making the call preflop in the hopes that his pair would hold up the whole way unimproved.

[Rocketwadster 0]

The difference between this call and the call from most poor players is that you're ONLY getting action from the preflop raiser, who is often making these exact moves with strong overcards.With even a single raise, you dump the hand immediately at any point.How much has he invested?  One additional dollar to take down nearly a $20 pot by the river.  But then, he wasnt making the call preflop in the hopes that his pair would hold up the whole way unimproved.

Not sure if this was in response to my post, or just a response in general...My point in my post was that it cost our hero $5 to possibly win $18 ($5 of which was his own), for a possible profit of $13. Bet $5 to possibly win $13 with a pair of fives...I haven't done the math comparing various different hands to ours, but is this a good proposition if we did it 1000 times? I am asking, not telling... :?

[screech 0]

My point in my post was that it cost our hero $5 to possibly win $18 ($5 of which was his own), for a possible profit of $13. Bet $5 to possibly win $13 with a pair of fives...I haven't done the math comparing various different hands to ours, but is this a good proposition if we did it 1000 times? I am asking, not telling...

Again, this is not the right way to approach the problem. We are not calling the preflop bets with the intention of going to the showdown unimproved. Very rarely will this be profitable. My point was, that the way the hand played out, it is profitable for us to go to the showdown. So let's start with preflop. I think it's fine. You're playing to hit a set here, and will likely get out if you don't. So you call, getting the correct odds, which is profitable. Since calling is profitable, we should call.On the flop, you miss, and plan to get out because you never hit your set. There was plenty of action preflop, so you anticipate that it will get too heavy and you will have to drop out. But then something strange happens. It's only a bet and a call to you. You get to close the action with more than enough odds to hit your two outter on the turn. Since calling makes more money than folding (or raising) here, you call. Again, you plan to fold the turn if you don't hit, because the odds that you will win @ showdown is not great enought to continue.On the turn, another peculiar thing happens. The pot gets heads up with you and MP2. You never expected this. Since you are no longer trying to beat two opponents, your chances to win this pot at showdown UI just skyrocketed. It is now 15BB to you. Your effective odds are 8:1 if you call down. So you only have to win @ showdown less than 12% of the time to make this call profitable. Less than 12%! If you factor in the times your opponent plays AK/AQs this way, and the times you outdraw him on teh river by hitting a set, you will actually win at showdown close to 30% of the time. Raising would be silly here, but since calling shows a profit, we cannot fold. On the river, we are getting 17:1 to call. If we catch AK/AQs bluffing here 6% of the time it's profitable. Expect our opponent to make a desperation bluff in this huge pot often enough for calling to be profitable again.So, on every street, calling is the best option. It was never what we had planned, but given the way the hand played out, it became profitable. At any point, if we had folded, it would have cost us money. Not the other way around.

[Abbaddabba 0]

My point in my post was that it cost our hero $5 to possibly win $18 ($5 of which was his own), for a possible profit of $13. Bet $5 to possibly win $13 with a pair of fives...I haven't done the math comparing various different hands to ours, but is this a good proposition if we did it 1000 times?

What screech said.You aren't calling preflop with the intent to call the whole way. You only call the whole way because there's so little action that you've been given good enough reason to believe that your pair MAY be the best hand out there. Had you known preflop that you would be in this situation by the river, you would probably fold preflop - but you didnt.I dislike calling 2 extra bets preflop with low pocket pairs, but it's not horrible.He's calling to hit a set, but was presented with an extremely good opportunity despite having missed.