ChrisK 0 Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 I'll begin by saying I'm a novice player, but one who is willing to admit this and is putting in a lot of study as of late. I've been playing NL in home games and local tournaments, but this is my first time playing on-line limit hold'em.I went out and bought Phil Hellmuth's Texas Hold'em, which is mostly dedicated to Limit and read it in 48 hrs. I also have Lederer's DVD and pre-flop strategy sheets. I feel I grasp the concepts well and I've always been mathematically inclined. I decided to try playing limit using the strategy that Phil recommends, which is basically super tight. I'm very picky about my starting hands, either I fold or raise. Once in a hand, if the flop is unfavourable, I'm usually out pretty fast. I rarely chase hands to the river. When on the river, I calculate pot odds to decide wether I should call a raise.Despite the fact that I feel I am probably a more educated than the average 0.50/1 player, I can't win a cent! I don't know if I'm just having a string of bad luck or what, but I'm really frustrated.I spend hours waiting around a table for a nice hand, the blinds slowly depleting my funds, folding, folding and folding again. Finally, my K-K shows up, and I raise pre-flop and watch as 6 players call my raise. Now, the really frustrating part begins, the inability to protect my hand! I raise following the flop and calls from around the table. Here comes 4th street, another blank falls. Yay, I raise. Once again calls from around the table. Here comes the turn, another seemingly harmless card, I raise, then a re-raise. Ok, I call because I'm in this deep and I still have top pair with an ugly board. I cards get flipped and once again I lose, to a guy who called all my bets with 3-5 and made two pair on the river. I sink back into my chair and wait another 27 hands for a something to play, which will envitably result in another loss on the river to a calling station.It just seems like there are too many people in each hand to the river for a pair to survive. I've gone over an hour at one table without winning a pot. Hellmuth convinced me that playing "super-tight" was going to win money long-term, but rather I'm bored most of the time at the table and consistenty losing money.Now just in case you think I'm probably another terrible player, I have had some success at NL sit and goes. My record thus far at party poker is decent I thinkEvents:121st - 4 times2nd - 13rd - 2 timesTotal money spent $132 Money won $270So, I'm up $138 on NL, yet only up $40 overall, which means I've lost $98 on limit hold'em.So is Hellmuth a better player than teacher? Does his super-tight style work for anyone? Link to post Share on other sites
pokerplayer24 0 Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 Get a better book. Helmuth isnt much of a limit player. Small stakes holdem by ed miller and skalansky would be a good choice. Link to post Share on other sites
Smasharoo 0 Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 Limit takes a lot more skill to beat than NL.There's more money in it if you're good, though.You're not good at the moment.Good luck. Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 Getting Started in Holdemby ed Miller..probably better to start with..but get on SSHe as soon as possible as well.You probably will end up playing more hands,check raising more,chasing/betting/raising draws etcLimit is gut wrenching.best of luck Link to post Share on other sites
pokerplayer24 0 Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 Limit is actually a quite easy game when you get it all figured out, of course that can take some time. Link to post Share on other sites
Abbaddabba 0 Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 Though i dont know anything about the book, it sounds as if it's a book designed for limits higher than .50/1. I'm not sure that you can really LOSE a lot of money by playing ultra tight at those tables though. It's more of a situation where you're missing out on profitable situations. The fact that you are losing money may be because you stink after the flop, or because you've had a string of bad luck. Time will tell. Link to post Share on other sites
econ_tim 0 Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 Actually I think Hellmuth's strategy is just wrong for cash games.He advocates raising small pairs before the flop, raising Axs if there is just one limper in front of you (regardless of your position), betting AK to the river all the time, etc.And folding suited connectors and suited/unsuited broadways preflop loses too much money. Link to post Share on other sites
devilsslide 0 Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 Though i dont know anything about the book, it sounds as if it's a book designed for limits higher than .50/1. I'm not sure that you can really LOSE a lot of money by playing ultra tight at those tables though. It's more of a situation where you're missing out on profitable situations. The fact that you are losing money may be because you stink after the flop, or because you've had a string of bad luck. Time will tell.I know about the book, and you are right on. To the OPWhen I started out playing hold'em, I started with Hellmuth's book. I think it is good for an absolute beginner because it teaches how to avoid playing too many hands and going too far with them-- but it pretty much ends there. My first online experiences were identical to yours.So what's the answer? Read and reread Small Stakes Hold'em by Miller, Sklansky and Malmuth as many times as possible. Link to post Share on other sites
JaysonWeber 0 Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 Chris (WRTO) and I found a good use for Hellmuth's book that actually came in handy once or twice...So I was in the bathroom you know taking care of business when I look to my right and my worst dreams came true... No Toilet Paper!What is a man to do in this situation? I immediatly reach for the drawers and it was obvious the devil played me for a fool... No Toilet paper in sight! It was at this point I remembered my longtime childhood Hero Macguyver..So What would Macguyver do...I immediatly begin looking around the room as the Macguyver theme music is drumming through my ears...Then it hit me... Infront of me was "the box" w/ all of our poker books about 25 of them... I catch one out of the corner of my eye... "Play like the Pro's" By Phil Hellmuth...And then I knew what to do... and the first page was torn out. Link to post Share on other sites
Sushiman 0 Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 Is Hellmuth's book even written for limit poker? From what I hear even Jerry Buss and Larry Flint regularly skin Hellmuth at limit. Link to post Share on other sites
GamblinLeaf 0 Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 SSHE. Buy it. Read it. Reread it. Repeat. Link to post Share on other sites
T0xic 0 Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 My story is kinda similar. Here is what I would suggest.Step 1 - Buy Small Stakes HoldemStep 2 - switch to the NL tables Step 3 - Read and Re-read Small Stakes HoldemStep 4 - start back at the limit tables once you have read the book a few times. It will seem like a different game after reading this book.This is what I am doing right now and have found that my No Limit game has improved and I am even starting to make a little money at the limit game also. Link to post Share on other sites
CoolHandLaw 0 Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 Chris (WRTO) and I found a good use for Hellmuth's book that actually came in handy once or twice...So I was in the bathroom you know taking care of business when I look to my right and my worst dreams came true... No Toilet Paper!What is a man to do in this situation? I immediatly reach for the drawers and it was obvious the devil played me for a fool... No Toilet paper in sight! It was at this point I remembered my longtime childhood Hero Macguyver..So What would Macguyver do...I immediatly begin looking around the room as the Macguyver theme music is drumming through my ears...Then it hit me... Infront of me was "the box" w/ all of our poker books about 25 of them... I catch one out of the corner of my eye... "Play like the Pro's" By Phil Hellmuth...And then I knew what to do... and the first page was torn out.what you really wanted was Phil's writing on your ass. "phil's words that grace this page nwo grace my bunghole. life is good." Link to post Share on other sites
JacKingOff_suit 0 Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 Chris (WRTO) and I found a good use for Hellmuth's book that actually came in handy once or twice...So I was in the bathroom you know taking care of business when I look to my right and my worst dreams came true... No Toilet Paper!What is a man to do in this situation? I immediatly reach for the drawers and it was obvious the devil played me for a fool... No Toilet paper in sight! It was at this point I remembered my longtime childhood Hero Macguyver..So What would Macguyver do...I immediatly begin looking around the room as the Macguyver theme music is drumming through my ears...Then it hit me... Infront of me was "the box" w/ all of our poker books about 25 of them... I catch one out of the corner of my eye... "Play like the Pro's" By Phil Hellmuth...And then I knew what to do... and the first page was torn out.That's some very expensive toilet papers you've got, wrong to begin with. -Ev, -Ev... Link to post Share on other sites
leeroy_jenkins 0 Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 JaysonWeber,Love the Kool-Aid Dane Cook through the wall. That guy is probably one of the best comedians out right now, agree?Leeerooyy Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisK 0 Posted August 19, 2005 Author Share Posted August 19, 2005 Haha, some funny replies.... I definately have a completey different opinion of Hellmuth now then I did a week ago. Sadly, the only reason I bought his book is because it was the cheapest! Now, I know why. I will certainly get the small stakes hold'em book and absorb at much as possible.The more I think about it, the more obvious it becomes that hellmuths strategy can never work at a loose table (as all 0.5/1 tables are). If you are only ever playing pocket pairs and A-K, A-Q, your chances of making straights and flushes are drastically reduced. With so many people calling until the river, straights and flushes are plentiful and pockets just don't survive. For the strategy to work, everyone at the table would have to be just as tight and that just isn't the case. Lederer's pre-flop instructions include many more suited connectors etc that can make a lot of money when the flops are kind.This becomes even clearer when I think back and realize the only times I was winning pots was in the BB position, playing whatever I got. At those times I actually had draws on the flop, which almost never happens when relying on pocket pairs.Anyway, I'm going to step back and read and study for a while, then go back to the tables. Thanks for the help. :-) Link to post Share on other sites
monoatomic 0 Posted August 19, 2005 Share Posted August 19, 2005 JaysonWeber,Love the Kool-Aid Dane Cook through the wall. That guy is probably one of the best comedians out right now, agree?LeeerooyyI actually think that is from a family guy episode.Yes, Dane Cook is GOD! Link to post Share on other sites
STYLINHAWYN 0 Posted August 19, 2005 Share Posted August 19, 2005 pretty much what everybody else said, reading helmuths book is like banging your head on a brick wall. heres what you do, go to your nearest gas station/mini mart (shouldn't cost your no more than $5)...buy a book of matches and some gasoline and burn that book.I think your problem could be your playing too tight, waiting for a hand is not how to play poker. Your easily read this way and you probably don't get any action right.do yourself a favor and read books that actually teach you somethingDoyles SS2physchology of pokerthese were the 2 books that helped me the most Link to post Share on other sites
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