a8 turns middle pair

[wrto4556 0]

villian is 33/12/1.3 which seems like the standard stats for most party 15/30 players. I seen him cap AQo from the BB, but nothing too out of line.Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed) converterPreflop: Hero is CO with A:spade:, 8:spade:. UTG calls, 4 folds, UTG calls.Flop: (7 SB) 3:spade:, 5:diamond:, 6:diamond: (3 players)SB bets, UTG folds, Hero calls.Turn: (4.50 BB) 8:heart: (2 players)SB bets, SB calls.River: (8.50 BB) T:spade: (2 players)SB checks, Hero checks.Final Pot: 8.50 BB

[amarillotg 0]

looks good.just to pick your brain, why no raise on this flop? i have a few ideas, just wondering what your reason was.

[NarSARSsist 0]

I'm relatively new to limit poker, so I'm still trying to pick up the subtle differences that make good limit and no limit players. I'd appreciate if you could answer my question.Why no bet on the river when he checked? I mean, could he really have tried to check raise you there? (Btw, I don't understand what you mean by A8 turns middle pair, looks like turns top pair to me...) I normally play NL, and I'd throw out a bet here on the river; is there something to Limit HE that makes this a bad play? It seems unlikely that he'd have you beat here, he might have a draw or a pair of 5 or 6s, but it seems unlikely that the river would help him (unless he had, like, 4 10, or something similar, in which case wouldn't he bet?). Why not throw in a bet for value, or if he folds, you get to keep him wondering?If anyone would be so kind as to enlighten this rookie, it would be very much appreciated. :-)

[econ_tim 0]

Why no bet on the river when he checked?

wrto must have thought the villain would fold most of the hands that were behind A8 and call with hands that on average beat A8.I would bet this river against most opponents (especially at 1/2 where I play), but if villain plays the way I describe above then checking is better.

[Rocketwadster 0]

Can't see very many hands that we have beaten calling a river raise, so why do it? I am curious as to the turn play though. Are you raising with ANY card that comes, or just one that improves your hand? 8)

[wrto4556 0]

Can't see very many hands that we have beaten calling a river raise, so why do it?  I am curious as to the turn play though.  Are you raising with ANY card that comes, or just one that improves your hand?   8)

just one that improves my hand. Btw, the avatar is great.also, im not sure if i should have bet this river or not.

[Rocketwadster 0]

Can't see very many hands that we have beaten calling a river raise, so why do it? I am curious as to the turn play though. Are you raising with ANY card that comes, or just one that improves your hand? 8)

just one that improves my hand. Btw, the avatar is great.also, im not sure if i should have bet this river or not.

avatar is a work in progress...having trouble getting one that is not blurry down to the 100 x 120 size... :wink: In NL, I see this play all the time (by good players only), where they just call on the flop, but bet/raise on the river regardless of the card that comes off. I wasn't sure if your play here was following a similar line, but in limit HE. Since that wasn't your intention, would it not be better to raise on the flop then, giving you a better idea of your opponents holdings when the bets are smaller? I am not telling, I am asking. I've played very similar hands both ways (like you did and like I am asking about), and am curious as to which play is better in the long run... :?

[NarSARSsist 0]

Sweet, this looks like it has a lot of potential to teach me about river play in limit hold em.Anyway, econ_tim brought out that he thought you (wrto) may have check because of the probability that you weren't gonna get called unless you were beat. So what was your thought process on the check at the river?

[WaitingforMyRuca 0]

I don't really know for sure if it is better to check or bet the river. Other than that I like the play. I'm just not sure what i would do on the river. Most of the time I think I would check behind also though.

[Rocketwadster 0]

Sweet, this looks like it has a lot of potential to teach me about river play in limit hold em.Anyway, econ_tim brought out that he thought you (wrto) may have check because of the probability that you weren't gonna get called unless you were beat. So what was your thought process on the check at the river?

You will find a ton of posts that talk about the river, where many times someone will not bet on the river unless there are plausible hands that they can beat that will call the bet.Check out Chris "Jesus" Ferguson's website for a great article about betting with a medium-weak holding on the river (the worst play in poker). 8)

[wrto4556 0]

ok, fisrt. Raising that flop kind of blows. I don't have anything good. Raising the flop with overcards is wrong about 80% of the time.On the river my thought process went like this: "scary board, chris checks."But after looking at it in PT I actually thought harder and tried putting him on a range of hands. None of the hands I put him on contained very many cards im behind to. I think im ahead 55% of the time and should bet/fold but im not sure.Anyone care to put him on a range of hands?

[WaitingforMyRuca 0]

Can't see very many hands that we have beaten calling a river raise, so why do it? I am curious as to the turn play though. Are you raising with ANY card that comes, or just one that improves your hand? 8)

just one that improves my hand. Btw, the avatar is great.also, im not sure if i should have bet this river or not.

avatar is a work in progress...having trouble getting one that is not blurry down to the 100 x 120 size... :wink: In NL, I see this play all the time (by good players only), where they just call on the flop, but bet/raise on the river regardless of the card that comes off. I wasn't sure if your play here was following a similar line, but in limit HE. Since that wasn't your intention, would it not be better to raise on the flop then, giving you a better idea of your opponents holdings when the bets are smaller? I am not telling, I am asking. I've played very similar hands both ways (like you did and like I am asking about), and am curious as to which play is better in the long run... :?

i don't like the whole betting for information thing. It's not really a very reliable thing from what I have read. I 'm not sure many pros recommend it

[wrto4556 0]

Phil Hellmuth says raise for information.mathmatics, theory, and GOD say it's generally wrong.

[Rocketwadster 0]

Phil Hellmuth says raise for information.mathmatics, theory, and GOD say it's generally wrong.

If Hellmuth said it, that is EXACTLY why I am doing it (I love that guy, in a non-gay platonic kind of way...)As I indicated, I have played similar hands both ways, with seemingly similar results over the long haul. I'll have to check out HFAP when I et home to see what it says again... 8)

[WaitingforMyRuca 0]

I honestly can't put him on any hands. maybe it's cause I'm all cheese brained from my party last night. Or maybe it is partly due to the fact that I can't read those stats, but I don't know. A6, A5? 77? I got nothin. That's why i think i would check the river

[wrto4556 0]

Anyone care to put him on a range of hands?

[WaitingforMyRuca 0]

Anyone care to put him on a range of hands?

ahhh...no respect. It's hings like this that make me fell like nobody pays attention to me :cry:

[wrto4556 0]

Anyone care to put him on a range of hands?

ahhh...no respect. It's hings like this that make me fell like nobody pays attention to me :cry:

lolwe must have posted at the same time. sorry

[econ_tim 0]

I think he paired the flop and has gutshot or flush draw. So 3-x of diamonds, 23, 25, 26, 37, 57, 67, 39, 59, 69. Some of these hands are unlikely, even suited. Also possible are very strong flopped draws that paired the 8 on the turn.8d5d, 8d7d, 9d8d, and maybe Td8d-Kd8d (although I think these are less likely).I think the hands with an 8 will call down, but there are more hands (by my rough estimate) that should fold.

[NarSARSsist 0]

I honestly can't put him on any hands. maybe it's cause I'm all cheese brained from my party last night. Or maybe it is partly due to the fact that I can't read those stats, but I don't know. A6, A5? 77? I got nothin. That's why i think i would check the river

Lol, you braindead and me not braindead have come up with similar results...tells you something about my skills . I would lean closer to A6, A4, and 44. In these cases, a call preflop would make sense, and the lead would also make some sense. I dunno about 77 though, wouldn't he reraise? (or is that bad in limit HE? again, i'm a rookie) Overcards might be plausible too though I guess, and so the raise on the turn shut him down. I don't see how he could check it to you if he had like A10 or K10 or something like that. Plus, if he can cap with AQo, wouldn't he at least 3 bet it with something like KQ or AJ? Now that I rethink it, a check would be better, if I did bet and he folded, I'd die of curious regret, lol.P.S. Ty for the link and help rocketwadster.

[Rocketwadster 0]

villian is 33/12/1.3 which seems like the standard stats for most party 15/30 players. I seen him cap AQo from the BB, but nothing too out of line.Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed) converterPreflop: Hero is CO with A:spade:, 8:spade:. UTG calls, 4 folds, UTG calls.Flop: (7 SB) 3:spade:, 5:diamond:, 6:diamond: (3 players)SB bets, UTG folds, Hero calls.Turn: (4.50 BB) 8:heart: (2 players)SB bets, SB calls.River: (8.50 BB) T:spade: (2 players)SB checks, Hero checks.Final Pot: 8.50 BB

You have provided your stats on this guy, and have indicated one "move" that he has made, which leads me to think that he was possibly making a move on you here as well. Two overcards or two diamonds MAY play the same way here (I've encountered it at small limits, but this is WAY out of my league). My guess is King 3 of diamonds... 8)

[WaitingforMyRuca 0]

now that I am wking up, I take back the line about 77 earlier. That' s wrong. I change that to 44 maybe, or just junk. Maybe he is full of shit. I honestly got nothing where I usually have an idea at least.....eh. I gotta take a break from playing today, and stop partying on Sun. night

[wrto4556 0]

see uncontaminated version on page 2.

[wrto4556 0]

i totally forgot to add A6s and A5s which clearly make this a value bet on the end.*bangs head on keyboard*

[Kendren 1]

i totally forgot to add A6s and A5s which clearly make this a value bet on the end.*bangs head on keyboard*

Dork. How could you miss something that easy?*psst... how did he do that again? I gotta larn dat*