bluffing with a hand

[benhoug 0]

I apologize for not having the hand history, but I waited too long after the hand to search, and I couldn't access it. I'll do the best I can.I was playing a NL game w/ .50 and 1 blinds. I had around $140 in front of me and had everyone at the table covered. UTG raised 4x bb - $4. I was on the button w/ AK off. I called and we took the flop of A J 7 .UTG led out w/ an $8 bet. I was positive he didn't have a flush b/c what cards would he make that raise with UTG that could give him a flush? I just didn't think it possible. I raised it up to $20 (hoping to represent the flush, but I had a pretty good backup hand of top pair/top kicker) and he thought for a very long time before calling.The turn was a complete blank. UTG bet $20 into an approx. $50 pot. I immediately raised him to $50 and he almost as quickly moved in for an additional $18 and change. At this point I wasn't too thrilled w/ my top pair/top kicker, but I was so priced in I had to call the last 18 to see what he had. Any guesses?

[SuperJon 175]

I'm gonna say either the naked K of hearts, AJ, or a set of sevens

[Love4hockey 0]

I can see someone raising utg with KQ hearts at these limits. I don't think you can be that positive he doesnt have the flush.

[looshle 6]

I'm assuming you dont have the K right?

[benhoug 0]

If I wasn't sure he didn't have a fush (which I was) I was POSITIVE after the hesitation to call my flop raise. I should have stopped with the bluff and either folded or lost the minimum, but I just can't understand calling raises w/ a flush on board with a hand like two pair (which is exactly what he had - AJ offsuit).I think what this hand taught me, is bluffing w/ a hand can be a very valuable tool, but it goes wasted on bad players, or at lower monitary levels where people just can't lay down hands.by the way, the same player made similar plays later in the session w/ 2 pair against scarry boards (I think two more times) and amazingly he won all of them. Maybe he knows something that I don't...

[Rocketwadster 0]

There are a lot of hands there that have you beat, all of which make perfect sense the way the hand was played out. Give up on those bluffs (after the flop) at small stakes games, as like you said, they are wasted.

[NarSARSsist 0]

UTG led out w/ an $8 bet. I was positive he didn't have a flush b/c what cards would he make that raise with UTG that could give him a flush? I just didn't think it possible. I raised it up to $20 (hoping to represent the flush, but I had a pretty good backup hand of top pair/top kicker) and he thought for a very long time before calling.

I don't necessarily think it's that bad a call. If he took the time to think about it, he might have put the pieces to the puzzle together. You say "what cards would he make that raise with UTG that could give him a flush?" He might think, "what could he [you] call a raise from UTG with that would give him a flush?" He probably took the time to deliberate whether he should re-raise or not, and whether you had that KQ hearts (I mean, how could he put you on Q 10 or K 10 of hearts, right?). His decision is no, you didn't have it, or that you might have a naked king. Also, perhaps the fact that you were on the button also weighed into his decision.

I think what this hand taught me, is bluffing w/ a hand can be a very valuable tool, but it goes wasted on bad players, or at lower monitary levels where people just can't lay down hands.

So, I don't necessarily think it's fair to say that about him. If he had just immediately clicked that little button that says "call", it's one thing, but he took his time to think about it (or to go for a restroom break ). His analysis was probably similar to yours, and he probably decided that if the turn blanks off, then he can fairly safely assume he's good.Come on people, give the suckers...errr um....the lower limit players some credit <SW>

[benhoug 0]

So, I don't necessarily think it's fair to say that about him. If he had just immediately clicked that little button that says "call", it's one thing, but he took his time to think about it (or to go for a restroom break ). His analysis was probably similar to yours, and he probably decided that if the turn blanks off, then he can fairly safely assume he's good.

My assesment wasn't based only on this hand. as I wrote earlier, this guy just couldn't lay down 2 pr. (I found this out after our confrontation). You tell me, is it a smart play to hold on to your 2 pr. w/ a straight, flush, or a paired board when there's somone raising after you? Sure there are some times when your 2 pr. are good, but in my opinion 2 pr. against a scary board is a piece of cheese. Some people think it's the absolute, stone-cold nuts though, and this guy was one of those players.There's an article on ESPN by Phil Gordon about the levels of thinking.http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/poker/colum...phil&id=2130757In my opinion this guy was on level one - I've got 2pr. that's got to be good.

[ChrisOfSpades 0]

If I wasn't sure he didn't have a fush (which I was) I was POSITIVE after the hesitation to call my flop raise. I should have stopped with the bluff and either folded or lost the minimum, but I just can't understand calling raises w/ a flush on board with a hand like two pair (which is exactly what he had - AJ offsuit).I think what this hand taught me, is bluffing w/ a hand can be a very valuable tool, but it goes wasted on bad players, or at lower monitary levels where people just can't lay down hands.by the way, the same player made similar plays later in the session w/ 2 pair against scarry boards (I think two more times) and amazingly he won all of them. Maybe he knows something that I don't...

if you were so "positive" he didnt have the flush, what makes you think he didnt have the same line of thinking? you have to think about what info you gave him by just calling from the button. that could be a weak ace (like A7), KJ, or maybe KQ. you're hoping he puts you on two hearts, but i can definitely see his logic by NOT doing that. questions for you:- since you're certain he doesn't have a flush (good read, btw), why didn't you put him on AK:heart: , AJ, or 77? did you really think you could make him fold if he had one of those hands?- and why in the world didn't you re-raise w/ AK from the button?

[Herr Mensch 0]

There's an article on ESPN by Phil Gordon about the levels of thinking.http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/poker/colum...phil&id=2130757

Gotta love that the beginner and the expert made the same play.

[benhoug 0]

why in the world didn't you re-raise w/ AK from the button?

I really don't like to re-raise w/ AK off. I've got the button, so I've got position w/ a good hand. I don't like the re-raise, b/c although AK is good, it's also a hand where you've got to hit the flop, and you're not going to hit the flop more than you hit the flop, so that seems -EV to me (that's the first time I've ever said that). I've gone back and forth on the way I played it, but the more I look at it, the more it looks like how I would've played it if I had stayed in w/ a hand like 7 8 , which I would do with position. Hypothetically I hit a small flush, raised an amount that would make drawing unfavorable, but tempting for him. He just didn't bite... Maybe this time it was a bad play, and the more I think about the raise on the turn I think it was horrible - I should have either moved in or folded, but raising $30 was awful - but I still like the notion of bluffing w/ a hand.

[Jadaki 0]

AK + Button is hugsYou can raise there and a lot of players call thinking you are just raising for position. I love good hands on the button, I love them with every bit of my body, including my ******!

[Rocketwadster 0]

why in the world didn't you re-raise w/ AK from the button?

I really don't like to re-raise w/ AK off. I've got the button, so I've got position w/ a good hand. I don't like the re-raise, b/c although AK is good, it's also a hand where you've got to hit the flop, and you're not going to hit the flop more than you hit the flop, so that seems -EV to me (that's the first time I've ever said that). I've gone back and forth on the way I played it, but the more I look at it, the more it looks like how I would've played it if I had stayed in w/ a hand like 7 8 , which I would do with position. Hypothetically I hit a small flush, raised an amount that would make drawing unfavorable, but tempting for him. He just didn't bite... Maybe this time it was a bad play, and the more I think about the raise on the turn I think it was horrible - I should have either moved in or folded, but raising $30 was awful - but I still like the notion of bluffing w/ a hand.

Bluffing only works on good players. You play a lot of internet poker against good players? If so, your a moron...lol 8)

[JacKingOff_suit 0]

If you can let go off your AK on the flop, then fold and you only lose $4 and wait for another shot.If you can't let go off your AK there, here's how I would had played it.Flat call his flop bet, move in on the turn and hope that he doesn't have KQ of heart and pray he will buy that you've got flush. You are screwed anyway (since you can't let go on the flop) so why don't you give yourself a chance to bluff him out?

[ChrisOfSpades 0]

why in the world didn't you re-raise w/ AK from the button?

I really don't like to re-raise w/ AK off. I've got the button, so I've got position w/ a good hand. I don't like the re-raise, b/c although AK is good, it's also a hand where you've got to hit the flop, and you're not going to hit the flop more than you hit the flop, so that seems -EV to me (that's the first time I've ever said that).

ok, i can buy that (although i still think reraising is the better option)

I've gone back and forth on the way I played it, but the more I look at it, the more it looks like how I would've played it if I had stayed in w/ a hand like 7 8 , which I would do with position. Hypothetically I hit a small flush, raised an amount that would make drawing unfavorable, but tempting for him. He just didn't bite... Maybe this time it was a bad play, and the more I think about the raise on the turn I think it was horrible - I should have either moved in or folded, but raising $30 was awful - but I still like the notion of bluffing w/ a hand.

your flop and turn play is bad if you're tryin to bluff. IF you hit a flush, why would you re-raise that flop? there is no need for a flush to try and protect against any draw there, other than top pair w/ a flush redraw. in this scenario, your flop raise is way too small. you only raised 1.5x his bet. there's $25.50 already in the pot (includes your $8 call), so make a pot-sized raise here, or overbet the pot. still not a strong play but better than your $12 raise.i think the best play for a bluff tho, is too smooth call the flop and then push on the turn. it'd be really hard for him to call after that, because it looks like a trap.