Socrates 0 Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 I dont personally fault the raise pre-flop, and I dont see why others have such a problem with it, though it possibly, and/or definetly is a bit excessive...(blinds are 1/2?)I agree though that AK is way overplayed as being the golden nugget when it is indeed a drawing hand....I can't tell you how many times people will call down a huge bet or all in with AK, when there is no A or K on the board, and no straight or flush in site for them to hit....Blinds should be .5/1 for $100 buy-in and a 10X rasie screams I don't really want a call. That and its overplaying the hand - you have A high. Again, cash, way different than tourney - throw it away, the blinds will be the same in 5 hours and then the same 2 days later, no need to over commit your money. Link to post Share on other sites
GoCryWolfe 0 Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 I hate when people overplay AK. Look at his donk move:Playing a $50 buy-in 64 person Heads-Up Tourney on PokerStars.Second Round, guy gets AK, I have QJ. I have the button, raise 3x the BB, he re-raises the same, I put him on an A or a PP, but wanted to see a flop. Flop comes QJ9, none of his suit. He automatically goes all-in. I have him covered, and call. Runner Runner A, K. Link to post Share on other sites
loxo 0 Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 Playing a $50 buy-in 64 person Heads-Up Tourney on PokerStars.Second Round, guy gets AK, I have QJ. I have the button, raise 3x the BB, he re-raises the same, I put him on an A or a PP, but wanted to see a flop. Flop comes QJ9, none of his suit. He automatically goes all-in. I have him covered, and call. Runner Runner A, K.Sounds like a bad beat story........except you called a re-raise preflop with QJ KNOWING you where behind.And he's the donk? Link to post Share on other sites
GoCryWolfe 0 Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 Playing a $50 buy-in 64 person Heads-Up Tourney on PokerStars.Second Round' date=' guy gets AK, I have QJ. I have the button, raise 3x the BB, he re-raises the same, I put him on an A or a PP, but wanted to see a flop. Flop comes QJ9, none of his suit. He automatically goes all-in. I have him covered, and call. Runner Runner A, K.[/quote']Sounds like a bad beat story........except you called a re-raise preflop with QJ KNOWING you where behind.And he's the donk?After seeing the pattern of his play, and knowing he will reraise with a naked ace, I felt it was 50/50. And, it's not a bad beat because he had the better hand preflop. However, he pushes all his chips in, NOT BEING short stacked, with AK, which amounted to Ace high. Thanks, come again. Link to post Share on other sites
JayPaav 0 Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 why is everyone giving this guy a hard time about his raise preflop with AK ? he's obviously playing at the 1-2 table and that is a perfectly normal raise with a legitimately good hand. the problem is that all you compuetr dudes talk a lot of online theory but never make it to the casino! us guys who play in the real cardrooms (not online) sit with much more than the 100 initial buy-in. ive often sat for 10+hours and have acquired a stack 4-5 times the 100 buy-in (sometimes more) amongst a group of at least 3 or 4 others who have large stacks and been sitting awhile, so a regualr 3xbb raise would be nothing for me. 1-2 often becomes much larger stakes than what it is. just a cheaper blind if you must muck preflop.10-12 is standard.keep it real. Link to post Share on other sites
Socrates 0 Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 why is everyone giving this guy a hard time about his raise preflop with AK ? he's obviously playing at the 1-2 table and that is a perfectly normal raise with a legitimately good hand. the problem is that all you compuetr dudes talk a lot of online theory but never make it to the casino! us guys who play in the real cardrooms (not online) sit with much more than the 100 initial buy-in. ive often sat for 10+hours and have acquired a stack 4-5 times the 100 buy-in (sometimes more) amongst a group of at least 3 or 4 others who have large stacks and been sitting awhile, so a regualr 3xbb raise would be nothing for me. 1-2 often becomes much larger stakes than what it is. just a cheaper blind if you must muck preflop.10-12 is standard.keep it real.I'm guessing I've spent more time in a casino than you have playing cards - especially ring games. What 1/2 games have a $100 buy-in? I know there are some, but they are considered crap shoot games - based on the assumption that he is playing a regular game, he is at a .5/1 table. Now with that said, what is the point of risking your money to a massive overraise if you are assuming you are behind? Do you search out races in ring games. I mean when you are behind 51-48 you do know that in the long run you will be down that % of your bakroll everytime you call there correct? Let me ask you a question, if you put him on a medium pair, are you calling with A7 here? Link to post Share on other sites
JayPaav 0 Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 im on the east coast. foxwoods is 40 min 100 max. at the 1-2. AK is not A7 .. you cant change the subject of the thread to suit your theories!!! Link to post Share on other sites
cardshark 0 Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 If any of you get the chance Doyle talks about AK in the new Super System 2 book. I was just browsing through it and he makes some good points of why it is good and how to play it. I also think that the reason why he likes it so much is because he is able to get away from it post flop easier than aces or kings. One thing he does not include is raising 10 times the big blind. Standard raise is 3 to 4 times the big blind or maaaaaybe 5 at the most. I find that if you raise different amounts it can be a tell to other players of how strong your hand is so I try and be consistent with the amount of my pre flop raises. But yea read what he says in that book its pretty interesting and has some things that Ive never thought about before. When it comes to all ins pre flop personally Id rather not be gambling my money away on coin flips with AK, I try to dominate my opponents hand or I feel like its just gambling. 22 vs Ak, 22 is a tiny favorite. If you want to flip coins all day play blackjack. The only thing you can dominate with AK preflop is AQ or AJ or any other ace. A pair less than QQ is slightly better than even money vs AK and many players arent all in unless they have AA or KK at cash tables anyways. As far as playing it, raise with it, fold if you dont hit A or K or a good draw(nut flush draw), and remember that if the board is paired you never know if your drawing dead to full house. Also in some situations the A or K helps you and the other player such as AJ10 depending on what they called with (KQ, 1010). I guess it really does also depend on a lot of other things like the player and your read on them that hand and also how many callers. If it is one tight player and/or you think they are weak it would be fine to bet out at the pot but i wouldnt risk my life savings with this hand if i got reraised and had no pair or draw. Sometimes it is also good to bet out at the pot as a feeler bet if you only were called by one person or if everybody checks, thats when position also comes into play, so many aspects to such a simple but not easy game. To sum it up dont raise 10xBB preflop cause your either getting called by somebody with as good a hand or better or somebody who thinks that you raised so much that you dont have anything that may try to put pressure on you later in the hand. Just my opinion and what works for me, not saying i know everything. Link to post Share on other sites
naterll 0 Posted August 13, 2005 Author Share Posted August 13, 2005 A lot of people on here need to quit acting like they are god's gift to the damn world and reply without acting like their play is perfect and totally correct. Anyways, I've played casino/online/house( probably more hands than most)....and what i was talking about was in a casino....and it recently happened. To say my ak raise is too much(10bb's oh my god, pleaseeeeeee), IT IS NOT. Yes, it may depend on the situation/table, but no that is not too much. It is a bet to get rid of Ace rags/ pocket pair of 2-8's, even thought it probably won't and at the same time keep the aq-a10 hand in. I know ak is a drawing hand and a hand that i do not like to be honest. To say it is a donk hand, like a couple have previously said, is wrong. Its a drawing hand, take it at that, but a DAMN good drwaing hand.A guy before in this thread said that he would rather have ak than aa in a multi-played pot.....are u ffing kidding me. I mentioned it was nl...are u still sure about that ak??? I would like to play you in any damn poker game you can name buddy.What i was trying to get out of this initial post is the likelihood/chances of someone laying down ak to a made k1o hand....do a lot of people have the poker skills/will power to a lay hand like this down? and is it smart to lay a hand like this down?I"m out boys... And if any of you would like to play a one on one match, come holla. Link to post Share on other sites
naterll 0 Posted August 13, 2005 Author Share Posted August 13, 2005 and smash, u play like that for 3 hrs in a casino, with only callin A suited/pocket pairs/aa/kk and see how much money you make.......NOT MUCH unless you are absolutely drilling hands. Take into mind that you are paying dealers five dollars every hf hr/tipping dealers/ and Possibly drinkin(which you are probably not).Plus you're not having fun.I'm willing, albeit pretty confident in my poker skills, to put 10 dollars down on a hand where i believe i can outplay my opponent instead of simply getting better cards than him/her. Link to post Share on other sites
PFunk 0 Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 A guy before in this thread said that he would rather have ak than aa in a multi-played pot.....are u ffing kidding me. Â I mentioned it was nl...are u still sure about that ak??? Â I would like to play you in any damn poker game you can name buddy.Doyle brunson say's he would prefer to have Ak over Aces in his books...Maybe this is where this person got that from....I dont agree with that preference.....I'll take Aces anyday over AK, thanks- Link to post Share on other sites
ronnieburger 0 Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 AKs is a better hand then AA or KK because it can flop a royal FLUSH!!! duuusw obviouslyyou are going to lay down TPTK because someone may have hit their 8-1 chance of hittin a set most times they will have AQ or AJs or might have AK and u guys will split but hell na u cant lay that down tooo many times you will have the best hand Link to post Share on other sites
cardshark 0 Posted August 17, 2005 Share Posted August 17, 2005 I dont like AK better than two queens, kings, or aces, doyle brunson does, i was just saying since the whole discussion is about AK and there is an interesting section doyle dedicates to it in his book Link to post Share on other sites
pong1092 0 Posted August 17, 2005 Share Posted August 17, 2005 any hand that calls 10x pre flop is ahead of AK.and if the flop is K 10 x, and they reraise all in, they have a set and know you have AK.I dont think so. If they put you on AK why put them all in here. When it is obvious that the person with AK is going to bet on the turn pretty much regardless of what hits, maybe not if another 10 hits or the x but if you have a set the chances arent good at that. A lot of players will lay the AK down here when facing the all-in raise. Link to post Share on other sites
DCSports92GSR 0 Posted August 17, 2005 Share Posted August 17, 2005 This thread makes me giggle .... hehehehehelet me sum all of this bull shit up:1) Your raise before the flop was absolutley retarded. kthx. 2) Who cares how much time anybody spends in the casino? Just spending hours there doesn't make you a better poker player, no matter how hard you try.3) AK is a fucking drawing hand. Why do people constantly play it like AA or KK and then complain when they lose?4) If you know you can't get away from it when you know you're beat, then don't play it. This goes for any hand or draw.5) I have a bigger E-Penis than you. Get over it already. Link to post Share on other sites
Royal_Tour 0 Posted August 17, 2005 Share Posted August 17, 2005 My question is, in a nl 100 max buy in,i fold AKo in $100 buy in NL.Play pocket pairs and suited aces. When you hit a set or the nut flush, move in.Move in with KK and AA preflop, limp everything else.End of story.Compare your win rate to where you are now, then cry for a while over thinking you had any idea what you were doing.i play 100 and 200 max nl online.I play AKo everytime i get it.in the blinds, i'll call/check, or might throw a small raise from middle to late position.(nothing large) TPTK is usually never good., the only time your winnning a hand at those cash tables with TPTK is against someone who thinks their JJ or QQ is still good, or the fool who is on the draw. Never call off all your money for that hand. But do be sure to play them Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Anonymous Posted August 17, 2005 Share Posted August 17, 2005 I've been gettin ace king a lot and have been taking some beats. I have been losing when i call, when i raise, when i play tight and when i play loose with it. My question is, in a nl 100 max buy in, when you get ak and throw out a 10 dollar raise, two players call, and the flop comes in k,10, 7 rainbow. You bet pot, someone raises you all in. What would you guys do?Bet half to 3/4 of the pot. And if someone comes over the top you can let it go a little easier. My guess is if you're standard bet is the size of the pot, then you have a table where chips are moving around too freely and losely. Find a better table with a lower flop percentage and lower average pot size and your chips stack variance will be a little less dramatic if that's what you're worried about. Link to post Share on other sites
Shizzmoney 0 Posted August 17, 2005 Share Posted August 17, 2005 My question is, in a nl 100 max buy in, when you get ak and throw out a 10 dollar raise, two players call, and the flop comes in k,10, 7 rainbow. You bet pot, someone raises you all in. What would you guys do?Well, it depends on the player's position, the size of their stack,and the type of style the player who raised all-in with is......I don't mind opening a raise of 10 dollars with AK here (although I have no idea what the blinds are, I'm assuming 1/2 or 2/4). That's a tight, aggressive style that will make you money (as long as you vary your play). Although I wouldn't play AK THAT fast all the time, but if you are the first to enter the pot, might as well raise. But when you get two callers, you have to immediately put them on either 2 things: big suited connectors down to 10-9 (especially if the player is on the button), or any wired pair, mostly likely 9's through AA.I also like the bet of the pot on the flop (although someone suggested 2/3rds or 3/4th of the pot, that might be better in case you are up against a monster and you can save a little money), because you need to find out where you are at with top pair, top kicker; but when you are re-raised all-in, then that is when I'd need more info on the type of player who raised you all-in to have a more accurate guess at what he had. If he was on the button, and an aggressive, gambling type of player, I'd either put him on some type of open ended draw (because it is a rainbow flop) with QJs. He also could have AA (because he only has one pair at this point and doesn't want you to catch anything you might have - at this point, you also must think, "What does this guy THINK I have?") or, he just flopped a set and is trying to play them unusually to make it look like he's bluffing at the pot (more likely he'd call 10 dollars with pair of tens or Kings than sevens becausethose are ok to great pairs to call a raise with, but 77 or 1010 are most likely because the implied odds are enormous if he hits his set). The same type of hand is also a possibility, but the odds of him having AK along with you as well as a K hitting the board is slim.He also could have trip Kings and is playing them unusally, but unless he has you on QJ or AA and is trying to get you to commit, I'd would think he would want to play them slow and try to make more money with it (especially on a rainbow board). Plus, if he had Kings, he most likely would have re-raised you in late position to try to make you pay to catch an Ace on the flop (and make it look like he was trying to steal).My conclusion - he had you on AA, and he flopped a set of tens, and tried to get you to overplay your "percieved" rockets. Link to post Share on other sites
Bonesy 0 Posted August 17, 2005 Share Posted August 17, 2005 So let's say the OP makes the smaller preflop raise as suggested and gets two callers and bets the pot on the same flop and someone goes all in. Is betting less preflop superior because he is now not pot committed? He is saving money if he folds to the raise. He hit his hand. Would raising less preflop make it an easier fold or an easier call or what? Link to post Share on other sites
Absolution 0 Posted August 17, 2005 Share Posted August 17, 2005 Did someone in this thread actually advocate calling an oversized bet just because they had a bigger stack? Go math! Link to post Share on other sites
fatmanonguitar 0 Posted August 17, 2005 Share Posted August 17, 2005 If my opponent wants to take 12% chance for a $10 raise to hit a set I'll take that any day. Hi.you're advocating paying off his 8 to 1 shot at 10 to 1.Just sayin. That's not how to make money.Exactly. Not to mention that he doesn't need to hit a set to beat your AK (before either of you see the K on the flop)!I think the OP had the right "idea" in how he played his hand, but clearly overplayed.1) Preflop - I think that most people agree that this was an overbet. 3-4 x BB would suffice.AK is considered a "drawing hand" but it is different from other drawing hands. You want to isolate with it. You are not drawing to a monster like a set or a nut flush where you want to play multi-way. You may get lucky and hit broadway, but obviously you are usually "drawing" to top pair - which playes better against less opponents.2) Flop - I don't think a pot sized bet is necessary. A lot of people auto-bet the pot but don't know why. This is usually the correct bet to serve the purpose of giving draws the incorrect price to chase. The opponents pre-flop smooth call and the rainbow board does not make me worried about a strong draw. What you need is an information bet on the flop. You flopped what you wanted - TPTK, but this will often make you broke. Make a smallish bet on the flop. If he missed completely or has an underpair, you most likely win the pot right there. If he raises, fold. If he calls, proceed with caution.In this case, you are folding to his raise on the flop either way. The way you played it, you lose ~$40. This way, you lose ~$ 14. Link to post Share on other sites
naterll 0 Posted August 17, 2005 Author Share Posted August 17, 2005 A lot of you guys are giving me some good information here and i appreciate it.Also, many people believe that I "overbet the whole hand". Once again, this was at the Greektown Casino in Detroit, 1 dollar/2 dollar blinds nl. Every hand there was at least a 10 dollar raise preflop. The table was loose and very fishy. Many people would have called my ak raise of 10 dollars with hands like kq, kj, k10, a10, aj, and the like. So i once again believe this was a justified raise and after the flop bet.Anyways, greektown casino has a very nice poker room......and very nice waitresses.DCsportsguy, you are truly an idiot. Link to post Share on other sites
fatmanonguitar 0 Posted August 17, 2005 Share Posted August 17, 2005 A lot of you guys are giving me some good information here and i appreciate it.Also, many people believe that I "overbet the whole hand". Once again, this was at the Greektown Casino in Detroit, 1 dollar/2 dollar blinds nl. Every hand there was at least a 10 dollar raise preflop. The table was loose and very fishy. Many people would have called my ak raise of 10 dollars with hands like kq, kj, k10, a10, aj, and the like. So i once again believe this was a justified raise and after the flop bet.Anyways, greektown casino has a very nice poker room......and very nice waitresses.DCsportsguy, you are truly an idiot.For some reason, people were calling the preflop raise 10xBB. If the BB was $2, it was a totally reasonable preflop raise. Especially if this seemed to be the standard size raise at the table - your hand is better disguised.My main message is that there are times when a pot-sized bet is called for - I don't think this was one of them. If your TPTK is ahead on this non draw-friendly board, you'll win the pot with a smaller bet (or get called by the marginal hands you describe above). If you are behind, you are crushed (set or two pair) and will find this out with the smaller bet.To all the people referring to AK as a drawing hand - this is too vague. I agree that it shouldn't be played like a big pair but it also shouldn't be played like a small pair, suited ace or medium suited connector. It should be described as a strong but unique starting hand that may be the most difficult hand to play. unlike the suited ace/med. suited connectors, AK will often win if it pairs and can even win showdowns unimproved!DCSports, the OP had a reasonable query about a difficult hand. Don't be a d.ick. You could probably learn something too. Link to post Share on other sites
loogie 115 Posted August 17, 2005 Share Posted August 17, 2005 What 1/2 games have a $100 buy-in?Isn't the $100 no-limit game at Commerce 1/2? It's at least 1/2. Link to post Share on other sites
case ace 0 Posted August 17, 2005 Share Posted August 17, 2005 I was referring to pre-flop with AK. Only hands that dominate it are AA & KK. You're not a significant underdog to any ther hand.True,when you raise 10x bb you are doing what sklanksy calls "turning ak into 72", meaning you are only going to get called by aa, or kk most of the time, or snap off hand that can crack you. In nl cash games the only value AK has is when you are short stacked (which you should enver be in a NL cash game) and want to move in on someone; not to call someone, otherwise toilet paper holds more value. In tourney play, that's a whole nother story, they are the work horse there. Link to post Share on other sites
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