dmb41 0 Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 If anybody is willing to host some pics for me, I might be able to put an end to this thread...PM me or reply to this post and I can email the pics to you.[/b] Link to post Share on other sites
ffishh 0 Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 If anybody is willing to host some pics for me, I might be able to put an end to this thread... http://www.imgplace.net/ Link to post Share on other sites
Tritz 1 Posted August 13, 2005 Author Share Posted August 13, 2005 if you are going to post pictures of pokerstars screen shots that you edited. don't waste your time.. ..my photos were unedited. Link to post Share on other sites
Tritz 1 Posted August 13, 2005 Author Share Posted August 13, 2005 For those of you who care to read Poker Stars Explaination of what happened, this is the entire conversation via email.I am green/ Pokerstars is red.**************************************************** Dear pokerstars.>> >>I am highrollr987 on pokerstars. I know that many of the full contact poker members have already sent you emails regaurding to pokerstars random number generators and integrity and I have read your replies. >> >>I am not working in anyway with poker pal, or any other program where I get a piece by selling software, those screen shots were not doctored they are 100% real. I need to know why poker pal exposed to me some of the flop to the whole flop before it was delt. I have lost all faith in online poker. I cannot stress enough that i am not working for anyone here, but I bought poker pal to play with me and for about 20 minutes the program was malfunctioning and exposing information that is suppose to be secure.>> >>please an urgent reply would be greatly appreciated.>> >>http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-forums/viewtopic.php?p=337667 - this is the thread it all takes place i am sure you have been here many times today.Thank you for your message. However, I must state categorically and for the record that such a program *cannot* work on PokerStars. Regardless of what you think you saw, the cards to come *cannot* be hacked or known prior to the moment they will be shown to all.While the deck is shuffled once and the order of the cards is thus known to the server from the commencement of the hand, none of this data is sent to the players until the very moment it is needed. All data is sent from server to players on a "just in time" basis. It simply isn't available on the player's computer in advance of being seen.That leaves two possibilities -- the possibility that the data has somehow been purloined from the server, or that the flop can somehow be predicted with mathematical forumlae from remote.For the latter, you'd have to assume our shuffle itself is flawed -- something you've steadfastly denied is the case. It's also something that both independent auditors at two firms have certified as not possible, having looked at the source code. You can see their findings here: www.pokerstars.com/rng_audit.htmlNow, as to the former, the ONLY way to get such data off of the server would be from the inside. First and foremost, the game servers themselves are behind firewalls and don't even have external IP addresses. They speak to the outside world ONLY via controlled gateways that can talk only to computers belonging to our programmers. An outsider would first have to penetrate this formidable security to even get a program onto the servers that could watch for and transmit the data. Not only would a hacker have to get past the firewall, he'd have to get past the security of the server itself, gaining administrator privileges such that he could install and run such an application... undetected by us.Our servers are monitored daily for any rogue processes that are not part of our server processes. They are also restarted regularly.Finally, the data on the shuffled order of the deck is not stored in the database (where it could be requested somehow, and even then only if the requesting software had access -- more on that shortly). It is stored ONLY in memory, as an internal memory structure in the game server.Now, if you know anything at all about software, you know that memory is protected. If you've ever gotten a Windows GPF error, this is one program trying to read memory that belongs to another application. Operating systems are renowned for not letting one program trample or even read the memory that belongs to another application.If through trillions to one odds a hacker was able to penetrate the server firewalls, penetrate the administrator security of the servers (and there are multiple servers), install a shuffle monitoring program, somehow reverse-engineering the internal memory structures so that they knew where in memory to look and how to interpret it, and keep such programs intact between our routine maintenance deployments and restarts..... they'd still have the problem of protected memory -- trying to access memory that belonged to another process (the server code itself).In a word, impossible. The ONLY way such a hack would work would be if it were coded directly into the server software itself... and that code is swept regularly, and updated often. No rogue code has ever made it into our server software, and I dare say none will.In short, the cards to come cannot be purloined from the server by internal or external software, and they are not sent to the client in advance of the moment they need to be seen by all players.That leaves only two possible explanations -- this software you described got lucky enough to call out 3 hands before it mysteriously "stopped working...." or you've perpetrated one of the all-time great trolls of the Internet, and worked a hundred people into a tizzy on Daniel's forums with doctored artwork and a wicked sense of humor.In any case, the PokerStars software itself is absolutely secure, and all players can be assured that the cards to come cannot be predicted in any manner on PokerStars. Best Regards,JeffPokerStars Support Supervisor >Thank you for your reply..>>All I know is that for about 20 minutes my program was correctly 'guessing' every flop...correctly...I am in no way a 'computer smart' person, but I do know what I saw, and granted I may never be able to mimic what happened again with the program, I now know it can be done.>>And the fact that I made this all up, then emailed you anyway.. is rediculous.>>-Mr. TritzThanks again for your email. As Jeff mentioned, the site is secure and the cards are sent from the server on a "Just in Time" basis. I am not computer expert and certainly do not claim to be a statistics expert; however, I can assure you that our site is secure and you should have no concerns regarding this.Thanks for your patronage.Regards,Patrick K.PokerStars Support Team>Again, I thank you for your reply, but I seriously need to know why my program was able to correctly predict the flop for about twenty minutes of play. Even though, you told me it could not be done...I know what I saw and it did happened. Telling me your site is secure is not a good enough answer to make me want to continue to play. >>Please let me know.>>-Mr. Tritz I will pass the email on to Jeff. However, as he mentioned the server is secure and the integrity is not in jeopardy.Regards,Patrick K.PokerStars Support Team Link to post Share on other sites
goldie79 0 Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 This thing is still going on? I thought it was dead, I had fun though trying to piece all the information together.Tritz didn't "edit" any images.Pokerstars didn't have a "glitch".Poker-pal is a piece of shit. Explain to me the fucked up pot sizes as I pointed out earlier. Link to post Share on other sites
goldie79 0 Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 Lee Jones is the shit. Link to post Share on other sites
dmb41 0 Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 I have imported the images into Photoshop and magnified them by 800%. In the image below you will see an example of how text appears in the PokerPal program.Everything is nice smooth text with even spacing. In the image below I added spacers so that you can see the space between characters is identical.When I magnified the text where the flop card was displayed prior to the flop you can see a big difference between the text. It is all crammed together and isn't similar to example above. The image below is the maginified text of the "hidden" flop card.I have also added spacers between the letters in that image to show you how much the spacing differs from the 1st text. That image is below.Just to double check, I magnified several different areas of text and compared the spacing between them. They were all identical except for the "ghost" flop card that was included. You can come up with your own conclusion but I have done a lot of graphic design and image restoration and that image looks like it was doctored. Link to post Share on other sites
Tritz 1 Posted August 13, 2005 Author Share Posted August 13, 2005 I am sorry, I do not understand what this proves? Link to post Share on other sites
Meatwad 0 Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 I am sorry, I do not understand what this proves? I am sorry to disappoint you, but it was not a hoax. I am starting to accept it as an anomoly.I'm continuing to see it as you being full of shit. Link to post Share on other sites
dmb41 0 Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 I am sorry, I do not understand what this proves?If that text was put there by the program it would not look like that. Link to post Share on other sites
Tritz 1 Posted August 13, 2005 Author Share Posted August 13, 2005 i have expanded that entire hand history report, and it all looks the same to me. Link to post Share on other sites
dmb41 0 Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 i have expanded that entire hand history report, and it all looks the same to me.If it all looks the same then you need to look closer. Link to post Share on other sites
Tritz 1 Posted August 13, 2005 Author Share Posted August 13, 2005 Spademan, I really do not understand what me talking about a ribeye with some dude has anything to do with anything. Link to post Share on other sites
Tritz 1 Posted August 13, 2005 Author Share Posted August 13, 2005 now i am not graphic specialist but the spacing here looks exactly like it does on the second screen shot, and the spacing is correct between the J and the clubs sign when in comparison to the A. Link to post Share on other sites
dmb41 0 Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 now i am not graphic specialist but the spacing here looks exactly like it does on the second screen shot, and the spacing is correct between the J and the clubs sign when in comparison to the A.Look at the 1st pic. The spacing between every single letter is identical. Now look at the 2nd pic. Then look at it again. Now tell me the spacing between all the letters is the same. Link to post Share on other sites
Tritz 1 Posted August 13, 2005 Author Share Posted August 13, 2005 do you mean between "highrollr" and the "Jc2As" Link to post Share on other sites
dmb41 0 Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 do you mean between "highrollr" and the "Jc2As"yes.. Link to post Share on other sites
Tritz 1 Posted August 13, 2005 Author Share Posted August 13, 2005 well of course those would be different, they are two different words. You would need to examine the same words from the two different screens, having two different words be spaced different means nothing because the size of the letters change, even at that level. I learned that the first day of my desktop publishing course. Link to post Share on other sites
Suited_Up 2 Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 do you mean between "highrollr" and the "Jc2As"yes..I think to make that point, you need to compare the text from cards, to the text from cards. Not from all alpha to something that's alpha numeric.On top of that... although I see what you're saying... how do you propose he actually did the editing of that... and how would the spacing change? Those are miniscule spaces that are less that pressing a space bar, not something anyone can control. Not even the designers of the program, they just typed the text like any of us would.And for the record. I don't have a stance on this whole thread, just making the points that I see fit to make. Link to post Share on other sites
dmb41 0 Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 do you mean between "highrollr" and the "Jc2As"yes..I think to make that point, you need to compare the text from cards, to the text from cards. Not from all alpha to something that's alpha numeric.On top of that... although I see what you're saying... how do you propose he actually did the editing of that... and how would the spacing change? Those are miniscule spaces that are less that pressing a space bar, not something anyone can control. Not even the designers of the program, they just typed the text like any of us would.And for the record. I don't have a stance on this whole thread, just making the points that I see fit to make.I see your point. I will add some more images when I get time. Link to post Share on other sites
Herr Mensch 0 Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 Mr. Jones,I know what I saw, and I saw the cards before they were flopped.Are you calling me a liar?He's not, but I am.You're a filthy liar. Stop lying you pathetic lying liarly liar.You lie.Stop it.Liar.Don't beat around the bush, Wordsmith. What dou you really think?Mensch Link to post Share on other sites
dmb41 0 Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 Actually I will need more screen shots from the OP. It doesn't have to include the "ghost" card. Just run the program like normal and I will take samples from those unaffected images and display the results. Link to post Share on other sites
Johnny Lately 0 Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 Wow! ...............what a thread!(Insert further punctuation here)The OP seems adamant therefore my guess is it was caused by the beautiful vagaries of randominity (sp?) (which poker by definition demands.)......rather than the deliberate misleading of the board.Also since its all pre-encrypted anyway then you'd have to have a delay loop situation to beat it - when its probably done on a ping basis to defeat that method anyway, I put it all down to an honest mis-interpretation. A dumb one though. Link to post Share on other sites
Tritz 1 Posted August 13, 2005 Author Share Posted August 13, 2005 Actually I will need more screen shots from the OP. It doesn't have to include the "ghost" card. Just run the program like normal and I will take samples from those unaffected images and display the results.the software is on my laptop and im at a friends house for the time being, but I should be able to send you whatever you need as soon as tomorrow morning. If you would like to PM with exactly what you want i will post up some new pics for you. Link to post Share on other sites
dmb41 0 Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 the software is on my laptop and im at a friends house for the time being, but I should be able to send you whatever you need as soon as tomorrow morning. If you would like to PM with exactly what you want i will post up some new pics for you.I just need screen shots of you using the program. It doesn't matter if it's not showing the "ghost" card anymore. Link to post Share on other sites
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