NYIsles 0 Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 by folding this hand?RJDIRK : Post Small Blind ($1)NYIsles : Post Big Blind ($3)Dealing...Dealt to NYIsles [ Qd ]Dealt to NYIsles [ Jh ]Joes123 : Fold detbro482: Fold casheum : Fold el-schwa: Fold catcat63: Call ($3)darrenc : Raise ($6)RJDIRK : Call ($5)NYIsles : Call ($3)catcat63: Call ($3)QJ warrants a call from the big blind…*** FLOP *** : [ 8d 2c Js ]RJDIRK : Check NYIsles : Bet ($3)catcat63: Call ($3)darrenc : Raise ($6)RJDIRK : Call ($6)NYIsles : Raise ($6)catcat63: Call ($6)darrenc : Raise ($6)RJDIRK : Call ($6)NYIsles : Call ($3)catcat63: Call ($3)OK, I have top pair with a decent kicker. I bet, and get raised. What could he have? Well, he raised pre-flop… he could have anything from AA to overcards. I play back at him to see where things stand, and get re-raised. Now there’s an indication of strength, possibly a set; perhaps AJ. I figure it’s worth one more call, considering there’s $66 in the pot right now. *** TURN *** : [ 8d 2c Js ] [ 9c ]RJDIRK : Check NYIsles : Check catcat63: Check darrenc : Bet ($6)RJDIRK : Raise ($12)NYIsles : Fold catcat63: Call ($12)darrenc : Call ($6)I’m not going to call two bets cold here (including a check-raise), especially with the prospect of another raise behind me. At most, I had 6 outs, and they’re not even close to clean. I’m guessing I’m up against at least a set, and possibly a made straight. I muck the hand. *** RIVER *** : [ 8d 2c Js 9c ] [ Th ]RJDIRK : Bet ($6)catcat63: Call ($6)darrenc : Call ($6)Yeah, of course…*** SUMMARY ***Pot: $123 | Rake: $3Board: [ 8d 2c Js 9c Th ]el-schwa didn't bet (folded) catcat63 lost $36 [ Ac 8c ] (a pair of eights)darrenc bet $36, collected $123, net +$87 (showed hand) [ 2h 2d ] (three of a kind, twos)RJDIRK lost $36 (showed hand) [ 9h Jc ] (two pair, jacks and nines)NYIsles lost $18 (folded) [ Qd Jh ] (a straight, eight to queen)axuuu didn't bet Joes123 didn't bet (folded) detbro482 didn't bet (folded) casheum didn't bet (folded) Would anyone have played this differently?Thanks… Link to post Share on other sites
Jordan 1 Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 I dont play limit much...but I still think I would have folded the hand preflop.That probably is not the right play, but with QJ offsuit I know I wouldn't be comfortable with top pair of Jacks, or Queens, and thus would fold the hand. If I play QJ, I normally make sure I'm suited and looking to hit a flop with a big draw.However, as this is limit as opposed to no limit, I guess calling one more bet isn't a big deal...I just wouldn't be expecting much unless you were to flop two pair or a trips.This is an automatic fold for me in most no limit games, no matter what my position. If I'm suited, I may take a flop if the price is right, position, and money in the pot.To limit players: Is calling with QJo from the BB here the right play just because he only has to call one more bet? I'm really not sure...I just woudln't like "having" to call because I know how much this hand sucks.- Jordan Link to post Share on other sites
Jordan 1 Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 Eek, forgot.With my limited limit knowledge (oops) I'd also probably fold on the flop. Mostly for the reasons mentioned above. You need a big draw, and then with all that action I'd def. figure I'm beat here.Hope I'm not too wrong in my logic...again, I play more no limit cash games than limit.Good luck.- Jordan Link to post Share on other sites
MarionSauce 0 Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 Totally off topic, but Isles suck , especially with the Tucker VS Peca Link to post Share on other sites
Smasharoo 0 Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 QJ warrants a call from the big blind… This is your mistake.This is a fold against anything but a SB steal.Even then it's pretty marginal. Link to post Share on other sites
PreFlopQuiz 0 Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 You wre right ot get in preflop from the BB position. In this situation I would have put Darren on a high pair (AA, KK) and Dirk on a straight draw after seeing the betting patterns on the turn. So the question is what to do at this point with bet and raise infront of me. Well at this point I have implied pot odds around 8.5 to 1. And I have 9 outs (2 J, 3Q, 4T) so my odds are around 5 to 1. Pot odds outweigh and I call.In the end my assumptions may have been wrong but that is my honest answer. I am still learning, but that is how the situation plays out in my mind.Peace Link to post Share on other sites
Smasharoo 0 Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 You wre right ot get in preflop from the BB positionNo, no, no, no.No.Fold it pre-flop. Link to post Share on other sites
NYIsles 0 Posted January 21, 2005 Author Share Posted January 21, 2005 Interesting... Hilger (Internet Texas Hold'Em) says it warrants an automatic call from the BB... Link to post Share on other sites
NYIsles 0 Posted January 21, 2005 Author Share Posted January 21, 2005 Totally off topic, but Isles suck , especially with the Tucker VS PecaYeah, well Lanny McDonald sucks too... BTW, can you ask the Leafs to make something significant happen this century, so I don't have to keep watching the replay of that 1978 goal as one of the great moments in Leaf history?Much appreciated... :wink: Link to post Share on other sites
gobears 0 Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 You weren't last to act as the first caller could have re-raised and then you'd be in for another bet pre-flop.Smash: Would you call QJ unsuited if BB was last to act or is it still a fold situation? What if QJ was suited?By the way, I've enjoyed your commentary - very informative and entertaining. Link to post Share on other sites
NYIsles 0 Posted January 21, 2005 Author Share Posted January 21, 2005 Well at this point I have implied pot odds around 8.5 to 1. And I have 9 outs (2 J, 3Q, 4T) so my odds are around 5 to 1.At that point, I figure I'm likely up against a set or better. So I'm not counting the queens... Link to post Share on other sites
Smasharoo 0 Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 Smash: Would you call QJ unsuited if BB was last to act or is it still a fold situation? What if QJ was suited?No, and yes.It's important to understand how weakly hands like JQ, QT, AT, KJ, etc really are against raise completely out of position. Let's set aside the fact that JQ is crushed my most legitimate raising hands before anything happens and say you flop a pair. Like in this hand, actually. You're completely out of position for the rest of the hand. If you bet, you're betting into the PF raise who may very well by way ahead of him. Wrose than a raise on this flop, which at least offers you some visability and a chance to get away from the hand, you'll often be betting into a smooth caller who has you dead to three outs. If the BB was the button, you could call the extra bet here. It's not.Interesting... Hilger (Internet Texas Hold'Em) says it warrants an automatic call from the BB...Never read it, but he's wrong. It warrants a call against a late position steal raise, which this isn't. The button has to know that CO is going to call here. If CO hadn't limped it would be an easy call because of the likelyhood of a blind steal.What's he actually say in the book, that's it's a call from a raise in any position allways? Link to post Share on other sites
NYIsles 0 Posted January 21, 2005 Author Share Posted January 21, 2005 What's he actually say in the book, that's it's a call from a raise in any position allways?Actually, he charts it. The best thing about Hilger's book is that he includes a plethora of charts pertaining to the optimal way to play starting hands. There's a complete separate chart for each of early position, middle position, late position, and the blinds.Often, he will state specific conditions for calling or raising (e.g., reraise or fold against one player, call against at least 3); in this case, he indicates a call with QJ off in the BB to a raise from any position.The thing about Hilger is that he's also a fairly conservative player (he's the guy who in this year's Main Event "only played Aces", according to another player at the table), so his strategies are not reckless.Having said this, I'm kind of surprised you would fold the BB here, considering you've said you would play QT off from the button for the same bet - with considerably less in the pot. Out of position might be more of a disadvantage in a game with better players (where the PF raise might mean more), but this pre-flop raiser was lucky to hit his set of ducks. He shouldn't have been raising in the first place, and that's always a possibility to consider in these low limit games. I don't mind mixing it up on the flop a bit, since I know I can get away from a hand like top pair if I feel I'm beaten later on... Link to post Share on other sites
Smasharoo 0 Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 The thing about Hilger is that he's also a fairly conservative player (he's the guy who in this year's Main Event "only played Aces", according to another player at the table), so his strategies are not reckless.Well, he's dead wrong here.Having said this, I'm kind of surprised you would fold the BB here, considering you've said you would play QT off from the button for the same bet - with considerably less in the pot.I wouldn't cold call two bets with QT anywhere. I'd play it an unraised pot in late position. Calling a raise in the BB isn't the same as calling a single bet on the button. It's critical to understand that. It's worth playing a lot of hands, but it's not worth playing those which are frequently and badly dominated. Like JQ, KJ, AT etc. Calling this raise with 45s is much better than calling it with JQ because 45s is almost never going to make a viable second best hand when JQ will often. Out of position might be more of a disadvantage in a game with better players (where the PF raise might mean more), but this pre-flop raiser was lucky to hit his set of ducks. He shouldn't have been raising in the first place, and that's always a possibility to consider in these low limit games. I don't mind mixing it up on the flop a bit, since I know I can get away from a hand like top pair if I feel I'm beaten later on...If you have a hand history tracking program like Pokertracker, datamine what your BB/100 is when calling a bet in the BB with JQ, KJ, etc. It'll be negative. Position is important regardless of the quality of players. You'll be betting into people who will have better hands if they're great players or horrible. While some of the subtler points of position become less important, like pre-flop standards for limping or raising from middle or early becuase of the reduced risk of a limp-reraise, position after the flop still matters. You'll still win more money o nthe button in bad games than you will from the BB.JQ in the BB is an easy, easy, fold to a raise here. It really is. It's not just me. Sklansky says to fold it, Miller says to fold it in his guidelines for LOOSE table play, (and tight table play as well). In fact aside from your guy I've never heard of anyone advocating a call with it.JQ offsuit right?Fold it! Link to post Share on other sites
NYIsles 0 Posted January 21, 2005 Author Share Posted January 21, 2005 If you have a hand history tracking program like Pokertracker, datamine what your BB/100 is when calling a bet in the BB with JQ, KJ, etc. It'll be negative.Not sure how to mine for only hands that I've called a raise with from the BB... But since I've only got a little over 10K hands in Pokertracker now, I've only played QJ off from the BB 9 times, so it was easy for me to check manually. I do, in fact, have a positive return when calling a raise from the BB with QJ off, primarily due to the following...Josephine: Post Small Blind ($1)NYIsles : Post Big Blind ($2)Dealing...Dealt to NYIsles [ Js ]Dealt to NYIsles [ Qc ]Cancun : Fold Exec Player: Fold RLinSF : Fold jimbo2334: Fold swtke : Call ($2)DBD_SlamDunk: Raise ($4)rredd5 : Call ($4)harry6288: Fold Josephine: Fold NYIsles : Call ($2)swtke : Call ($2)*** FLOP *** : [ Jc Jd Qh ] Notwithstanding the above, your points are duly noted. Thanks for the input... Link to post Share on other sites
Smasharoo 0 Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 Notwithstanding the above, your points are duly noted. Thanks for the input...I'm not sure if I should take that as "**** off you arrogant prick I'm still calling with it" or "whatever".I think I'll go with that second one. Link to post Share on other sites
NYIsles 0 Posted January 21, 2005 Author Share Posted January 21, 2005 No, I really meant it. Your points make a lot of sense, and I appreciate your sharing your views. I'm really learning a lot from you , and I think it's obvious that most of the other people here are, as well... Link to post Share on other sites
KramitDaToad 0 Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 JQ in the BB is an easy, easy, fold to a raise here. It really is. It's not just me. Sklansky says to fold it, Miller says to fold it in his guidelines for LOOSE table play, (and tight table play as well). In fact aside from your guy I've never heard of anyone advocating a call with it. Just to throw a cat amongst the pigeons Bob Ciaffone and Jim Brier also advocate a call here - they go as far as calling with JTo - especially if there are 4 or more players.I'm actually favouring a fold myself in the abscense of info on the other players, however I chucked a few hands in an enumerator for some guidelines.In a 4 way pot, I assumed the raises and calls were 'true to form' and put the limper on a hand like ATo, the cold caller on a smaller pocket pair that didn't warrant a reraise (eg sub-JJ) and the raiser on a few of the best hands like AA, KK, QQ, AK, AQQQ was obviously the worst result possible with QJ winning/splitting only 9.7% of all handsWith the raiser on AA, KK the QJ wins 12-13% of the time (interestingly does better against AA than KK)Against AQ the win was about 22% and against AK the win ratio is about 29%So whilst getting 7-1 for the call, the required odds wereAA: 6.5-1KK: 7-1QQ: 10-1AK: 2.5-1AQ: 3.4-1Now if you dilute the odds further to allow for the fact that the limper and the cold-caller may actually have a piece of your action eg KQs or JJ, you really are only getting good value if the raiser has AK or AQ.Therefore I'm thinking that unless your post flop play is extremely strong, QJo warrants a fold Link to post Share on other sites
copernicus 0 Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 largely a matter of style and your ability to play post flop, and I would lean toward a call with this many limpers.Where I may be missing something is that you figure you have 6 outs going into the river, which looks reasonable to me. That means you need less than 7/1 to call. There is $87 or so in the pot, so even if you have to be in for 2 bets (not at all assured) you are getting better than 7/1. Easy call once youve made it to that point. Link to post Share on other sites
NYIsles 0 Posted January 24, 2005 Author Share Posted January 24, 2005 Where I may be missing something is that you figure you have 6 outs going into the river, which looks reasonable to me. That means you need less than 7/1 to call. There is $87 or so in the pot, so even if you have to be in for 2 bets (not at all assured) you are getting better than 7/1. Easy call once youve made it to that point.Not really. Even without a re-raise, I would have needed 6 clean outs for the call to be correct. But, with the flush draw and the possibility of someone holding a set (considering the strength represented earlier), I had to assume that some of those outs were counterfeited. That's why I layed the hand down.In retrospect, I only had three outs. Either jack would have given one player a boat; the 10 of clubs would have given another player the nut flush... Link to post Share on other sites
copernicus 0 Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 a marginal call. Youve got the necessary pot odds if there is no raise behind you, and the necessary implied odds if there is a raise and you get two calls.If catcat folds you are only slightly short on implied odds. The only clear drop is if you know its going to be capped.Thats why there are so many "bad beats" in limit. After aggressive early round betting there are too many draws that are pot bound to be secure, even with a set. Link to post Share on other sites
NYIsles 0 Posted January 24, 2005 Author Share Posted January 24, 2005 If catcat folds and darren calls, it's a $12 bet to win $96. Assuming I hit the ten (non club) and win two bets on the river, it would be $12 to win $108, which is 9:1. Winning four bets on the river brings it to 10:1. The odds against hitting a 3 outer are 15:1.Maybe catcat doesn't fold, but then again, maybe darren re-raises, so...What am I missing? Link to post Share on other sites
copernicus 0 Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 15/1, since putting the others on club draws and sets eliminate some of your non-outs from the remaining deck. Also, I wouldnt discount the club 10 very much. Is someone in there looking for runner runner clubs with that preflop betting? I don't think you can put yourself any worse than 11/1 to win the hand, call it 9%. If the average pot youre going to win is 17 big bets, your EV for the call is 1.53 big bets minus 1.82 big bets, or about .3 of a big bet. If you arent playing on a short bankroll and can stand the variance that doesnt seem like a huge charge for a shot at 17. Link to post Share on other sites
NYIsles 0 Posted January 24, 2005 Author Share Posted January 24, 2005 Thanks, Copernicus. What's interesting to me is that so many of these decisions are made in an instant when playing online... and the post-mortem afterwards results in a lot of analysis to try to determine whether or not the play was right.I can't imagine that most people are making all of these complex calculations when faced with an imminent decision, but I don't know... maybe they are. Or, maybe it's more of a feel thing based on estimates and approximations.What do you think? Link to post Share on other sites
Spidurman 0 Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 Thanks, Copernicus. What's interesting to me is that so many of these decisions are made in an instant when playing online... and the post-mortem afterwards results in a lot of analysis to try to determine whether or not the play was right.I can't imagine that most people are making all of these complex calculations when faced with an imminent decision, but I don't know... maybe they are. Or, maybe it's more of a feel thing based on estimates and approximations.What do you think?That's what I do in my downtime (to be blunt - while I'm at work, its the back of my mind lol). I read poker books and think about hands - generally via a couple forums. I then learn the textbook plays and situations - and the way my mind works its kinda like muscle memory - once I get a play beaten into my head, it becomes automatic.You're very right though - when you're playing, you don't have time to do detailed analysis. That's why you work on your game away from the table.If you are interested in playing with the math - I recommend pokerstove (www.pokerstove.com) - its a small download that lets you test holdem hands vs ranges of hands (other tools are just hand vs hand) - and I really prefer it since you never know exactly what he has. Link to post Share on other sites
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