Dewey99 0 Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Hello, My name is Dewey im from Trenton N.J. I have been a long time follower of this sight but never signed up or posted i guess im a lurker really. The other night a situation came up in my home game that i wanted to disscuse with the forum. I respect the Players on this forum and i asking for some advise. Background: I have 2 MTT at my home every week for the past 3 years. Before that it was always cash games. I have mostly had the same people play with us over that time. About 20 diffrent guys anything less then 10 is one table over 12 we do 2 tables short handed till down to 8 and combine. I have to say it is a very good game. There is a fish or 2 but they have become much better players in there time there and now they bust up other fish games. Pretty much everybody is coolwePlay cards together, Fantasy football , hunting and a few of us work as realtors in Hamilton Twp N.J. together. Most of our lives are interwined at some point. As I type this the cheater sits in a desk 10 feet from me. Our players have back man cut, but a few players will knock the deck. A few weeks back a player in the game ( Who was out already)thought he saw the the cheater deal from the bottom of the deck and on that had the dealer hit a set and won a good pot. After he talked to another player who said he might have saw the same thing but couldnt be 100%. I was informed and passed the word to a few players to keep a eye open. I thought that it was to late to ask the player about the situation considering it was word vs word and i found out a few days later. So Now a few people have a eye out. Now the cheater is a good player so i thought last 33 tourneys he has 7 wins good for second over that time. The Incedent: 10 players in tourney down to 6, Cheater is short stacked with about 300 chips 30-60 blinds cheater deal back man knocks.( found out he knocked after incedent) Cheater deals whole cards out then imediatly burns 1 and puts 3 face down. Instatly a player across from the dealer puts his finger on a card ( 1 from flop to be flipped over) and says i saw you deal this card from the bottom of the deck. The cheater starts screaming Bullshit I did not Blah Blah Blah Yes you did NO Yes no. So i call the hand dead and tell everyone flip your cards. Dealer turns QJ Now the other player still with his finger on the cards turns the card Queen . Turns out another player had QK. Cheater'' why would i deal myself a stone cold loser Why WhyWhy'' So now it a full on riot the two are in each others face lets go Muther f er Lets go I kick you ass F you No f u. Others are screaming $ 200 on john i ll take that bet Crazy shit. So the cheater storms out. 2 mins later my cell rings its him can you let me in. I do he comes in goes downstairs and says im sorry i cheated i fell bad humiliated and on and on. he leaves. So now a day later i make some calls to my regulars and there split on punishment and if he should be able to come back. Or if he should pay back some money( he is number 2 on money list since we started keeping stats) Should his 7 wins be thrown out( i have a board with tourney and winners name on it) Like i said before a lot of our lives intertwined ( me and cheater just got back from vegas playing in a few wsop events our wifes are friends) Not sure how to handel this so any help would be great. Also if any Fcp players are interested mondays and thursday at my house in Hamilton, N.J. tourneys like i said its a good game . I also informed everyone no more knocking and my cut cards must be used now. Any opions will be respected Thanks, Dewey Link to post Share on other sites
ajs510 122 Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Dude, if I caught my Mother cheating in my game she'd never be allowed back. The fact that your buddy got away without a Rounders level beating is all the grace he should expect. I would never, ever play so much as checkers with someone who tried to cheat me and my friends. It's a fair guess that he didn't win 7 tournaments on talent alone, and *then* decide he needed an edge, you know what I'm saying? If you let him come back, the other players are going to start looking at you funny every time you take down a pot. Link to post Share on other sites
....Ian.... 0 Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 this aint no 3 strikes you're out shit. he was caught cheating and now its over for him.....NEVER let him play with yall again. PERIOD Link to post Share on other sites
RayPowers 0 Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 I don't know how you can ever figure out how much he owes who, so paying back money is rather difficult. I would have to go with a perm ban, though. I cant see any way anyone else can trust him at this point, and letting him back in is just going to drive out other players. Your personal relationship SHOULD be unrelated to this. I have assholes that are good friends. I have saints that are good friends. Him not being able to play in your poker game should not adversely affect the rest of your relationship because he brought it upon himself. If he can't take responsibility for that fact, he's not going to be a good friend.Just my 2 cents.Ray Link to post Share on other sites
speedz99 145 Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 That seriously sucks. What a terrible situation to be in. A few comments:1. I like the fact that in your first paragraph you capitalize the word "Players". 2. I'm impressed you and your friends are even considering letting this guy back into the game. Nice people.3. If you do let him back in, he should give back all his winnings, and they should be put towards the prize pool for the final tournament standings. He should also lose any points he had accumulated through his wins. Those should be distributed evenly among all players.5. If anyone, I mean anyone, doesn't want him back he should be banned. Nobody should be forced to play with the cheater. Besides, it would just make for an awkward situation.6. Good to have you here. Keep posting. Link to post Share on other sites
GhostfaceKillah 0 Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Hey Dewey im from Northern Jersey id be interested in playing in your game.Also,I would have to suspend him from the game for maybe a 6 month period or something like that. Banning him from the game is a lil much. Link to post Share on other sites
speedz99 145 Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Your personal relationship SHOULD be unrelated to this. I have assholes that are good friends. I have saints that are good friends. Him not being able to play in your poker game should not adversely affect the rest of your relationship because he brought it upon himself.I disagree. I would not want to be friends with someone who was willing to cheat me out of a few bucks. What good is a friend if you can't even trust them? I have asshole friends too, but even they are loyal. Link to post Share on other sites
Socrates 0 Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 3 years of running a tournament and no one ever said "hey, where's the cut card?" Your first step should be to get some knowledge on how to run a proper game to deter things like this - cut card, mandatory deck cuts before deal etc...Other than that, ban him for life. no one will want to play ther if they know you let a cheater back in - hell if you did that I'd think you were in on it. Link to post Share on other sites
fryer98 30 Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 If he was still alive after I got done with him, I would never let him back. Link to post Share on other sites
CaneBrain 95 Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 I would say if he is a really good friend maybe you could suspend him from the game. You know, he cant play with you guys for a year and he has to pay back some of his ill-gotten gain.If your wives are friends maybe you should make concessions like this....if he isnt that good a friend then fucck him. To the happier part of your post.....where is hamilton NJ in relation to summit, NJ? I live 5 minutes form summit. Would love to find some area home games....still trying to get to your game KDawg. Link to post Share on other sites
fryer98 30 Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Your personal relationship SHOULD be unrelated to this. I have assholes that are good friends. I have saints that are good friends. Him not being able to play in your poker game should not adversely affect the rest of your relationship because he brought it upon himself.I disagree. I would not want to be friends with someone who was willing to cheat me out of a few bucks. What good is a friend if you can't even trust them? I have asshole friends too, but even they are loyal.I agree with speedz here....and I only have asshole friends. Link to post Share on other sites
RayPowers 0 Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Your personal relationship SHOULD be unrelated to this. I have assholes that are good friends. I have saints that are good friends. Him not being able to play in your poker game should not adversely affect the rest of your relationship because he brought it upon himself.I disagree. I would not want to be friends with someone who was willing to cheat me out of a few bucks. What good is a friend if you can't even trust them? I have asshole friends too, but even they are loyal.In life, I'm willing to believe people make mistakes and I'm willing to be more forgiving of that sort of thing if they seem genuinely apologetic. From a business standpoint however, no second chances (the business in this case being poker). I can see your point of view, but I also can easily see that the cheater was unlikely to look at it from a perspective of "cheating his best friends" but much more from a perspective of "beating the game." If he is genuiinely apologetic, and can realize what he did was a major screw up, as his friend I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt.As the runner of the game, there is no way in hell I am letting him back in. And if he's not man enough to handle that, then he's probably not genuinely apologetic and screw him, and the issue of a non-loyal friend has fixed itself...Ray Link to post Share on other sites
Elpedro 0 Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Tough situation....I think it really depends on what the overall feeling is with all the guys. Of course the easiest thing would be to say "banned for life" but personally i would try to error on the side of grace.1. I would have him return ALL his winnings - so he would essentially have been a loser in all the tourney's up to that point2. I would remove ALL his point totals, start him at the very bottom3. I would allow him to return - with this in mind; everyone is watching everything he does. He will not be allowed to deal and any "questionable" situation with him involved is automatically called a dead hand.If he's your buddy then you don't want to lose a friend over a card game - it doesn't sound like you're playing for a living but playing for the enjoyment of it. So in that case I would be inclined to let him play but keep a very close eye on him. Don't humiliate him (because he's your buddy) but treat it as "he betrayed the trust of the guys" and he has to earn it back over time. He did come back and apologize which would be very very difficult - he needs to be given some credit for admiting he did it and admiting he was wrong. I say error on the side of forgiveness. Link to post Share on other sites
nachunja 0 Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 me and buddies play 5 bucks tourneys.and i've caught 3 ppl cheating. but we still play with him anyways cuz we usually dont have enough to players to play with.but all of them had about 20 pounds of muscle on me, if i was bigger, i wouldve beat the shit out of othem Link to post Share on other sites
speedz99 145 Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 3 years of running a tournament and no one ever said "hey, where's the cut card?" Your first step should be to get some knowledge on how to run a proper game to deter things like this - cut card, mandatory deck cuts before deal etc...Other than that, ban him for life. no one will want to play ther if they know you let a cheater back in - hell if you did that I'd think you were in on it.This is in no way Dewey's fault. This is a home game with friends. There is no reason why he should have suspected that there would be cheating. I play the same way with my friends and would NEVER think that it would be a problem. Ray - You make some good points. I guess if it really was a friend I could forgive them. I just can't picture my friends doing that. Link to post Share on other sites
Jeepster80125 0 Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Tip #1 - Get a cut card. A piece of thin colored plastic that conceals the bottom of the deck. Keep it there. They get used in casino's for a reason.Tip #2 - In a home game or tournament that is self dealt, the dealer should cut the deck onto the colored cut card, or the person to the right of the dealer should cut the deck. Either way, this should be done on the table, in plain view.Tip #3 - Keep the cards on the table at all times. Shuffle on the table, cut on the table, and after the hole cards are dealt, keep the cards on the table. There is absolutely no reason for the dealer to hold the cards. I don't believe for a second that your "cheater" kept the cards in plain view or on the table when he shuffled and dealt. Tip #4 - There is a burn card before cards are flipped for a reason. That reason being to ensure that a blind card is dealt. This results from people marking cards and knowing what the next card off the top of the deck will be. The second your "cheater" flipped the flop, the hand should be mucked and bets returned. Or, if there is no rule, simply much your cards into the cards that are face down. That solves that quickly and efficiently, and no one can say squat. Tip #5 - I would suggest at least one black eye, and a concussion to boot, so he feels in the morning why cheaters don't win.I used to deal cards five nights a week outside casinos, and this situation comes up regularly with self dealing games. J in Colo. Link to post Share on other sites
Socrates 0 Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 3 years of running a tournament and no one ever said "hey, where's the cut card?" Your first step should be to get some knowledge on how to run a proper game to deter things like this - cut card, mandatory deck cuts before deal etc...Other than that, ban him for life. no one will want to play ther if they know you let a cheater back in - hell if you did that I'd think you were in on it.This is in no way Dewey's fault. This is a home game with friends. There is no reason why he should have suspected that there would be cheating. I play the same way with my friends and would NEVER think that it would be a problem. Ray - You make some good points. I guess if it really was a friend I could forgive them. I just can't picture my friends doing that.A game is a game, same rules apply if I know the others or have never seen them before. I'm not asying its his fault, but not playing with a cut card is asking for all sorts of problems (even unintentional cheating), not cutting the deck, just weird. Unfortuantely too many ppl seperate home friend poker from poker with people they don't know. There should be no difference unless you're just not serious about the game. Link to post Share on other sites
Rasmus 0 Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 i know its not all that relevant, but you really seem wasted. Damn i had troubles reading that text... Link to post Share on other sites
halvey7 0 Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Let the group of players take a vote on his punishment. Link to post Share on other sites
Jeepster80125 0 Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 I started reply to OP with 3 replies to the thread, and the phone rang. Three minutes later, bam. You people are fast... Link to post Share on other sites
Dewey99 0 Posted August 10, 2005 Author Share Posted August 10, 2005 Thanks for all the Info guy its coming fast and furiou. I figured i would get flamed myself a littel but. We Do cut but with 2 decks going, raking pots and ballgames ( 2 tv goings ) hey some people throw out a knock he took a shot that they wont cut they didnt. But now that there is a proplem ill make the cut cards and cut mandatory. As far as me not knowing how to run a game anyone is welcomed and im sure you will not find a problem i have to admit that my game is pretty dam good Link to post Share on other sites
Scamlan 0 Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 That sucks, I probably would have stabbed him in the ear with a steak knife... Link to post Share on other sites
speedz99 145 Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 That sucks, I probably would have stabbed him in the ear with a steak knife...I love the fact that you created an account, loaded up an avatar, and posted for your first time...and wrote this.Strong work. Link to post Share on other sites
Nitro 0 Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 I'd beat every cent out of him. Link to post Share on other sites
Scamlan 0 Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 That sucks, I probably would have stabbed him in the ear with a steak knife...I love the fact that you created an account, loaded up an avatar, and posted for your first time...and wrote this.Strong work.What can I say, it's a long day at work... Link to post Share on other sites
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