capped seven ways with 10-9 suited! (lhe)

[akishore 0]

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cxPreflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 9:heart:, T:heart:. CO posts a blind of $0.50. UTG calls, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 raises, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, Hero calls.Flop: (29 SB) 8:club:, 3:heart:, J:diamond: (7 players)SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.Turn: (22.50 BB) 6:diamond: (5 players)Hero checks, UTG+2 folds, MP1 bets, MP3 calls, Hero calls.1. how good/bad was my limp-three-bet preflop? with seven players in, i just couldn't help myself. i felt like i had a clear equity edge and my hand just did so awesome multiway.2. how was my flop play? i didn't want to bet out and have the PF raiser or capper to raise me right away, so i was looking to checkraise. but, the flop bet was immediately raised and almost the whole field folded, so i didn't think i could three-bet for value anymore.aseem

[DCSports92GSR 0]

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cxPreflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 9:heart:, T:heart:.  CO posts a blind of $0.50.    UTG calls, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 raises, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, Hero calls.Flop: (29 SB) 8:club:, 3:heart:, J:diamond: (7 players)SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.Turn: (22.50 BB) 6:diamond: (5 players)Hero checks, UTG+2 folds, MP1 bets, MP3 calls, Hero calls.1. how good/bad was my limp-three-bet preflop? with seven players in, i just couldn't help myself. i felt like i had a clear equity edge and my hand just did so awesome multiway.2. how was my flop play? i didn't want to bet out and have the PF raiser or capper to raise me right away, so i was looking to checkraise. but, the flop bet was immediately raised and almost the whole field folded, so i didn't think i could three-bet for value anymore.aseem

You can make an argument for folding the 9-10 pre-flop, but I definatley wouldn't 3 bet with it out of position. A limp / call pre-flop would probably be MY choice. I would probably check the flop like you, looking to raise once some other people called the original bettor's bet, but once MP1 3 bet it, I'm just calling like you. Id play the same on the turn.

[looshle 6]

I love the play on every street. You built a really nice pot preflop with a nice drawing hand. Some people are gonna argue it, but I like it. I think your flop play maximizes the amount of money in the pot.So, did ya river it?

[Sysvr4 0]

1. how good/bad was my limp-three-bet preflop? with seven players in, i just couldn't help myself. i felt like i had a clear equity edge and my hand just did so awesome multiway.

Your hand has to have PE > 14.28 for this to be +EV. Of course, without knowing for sure what your opponents have, it's hard to say. According to my calcs (see below) if MP1 is raising with AKs and noone has an overpair, it's +EV at PE of 19.54%. If MP1 is raising with QQ (or any overpair really), it's very close at 13.83%.I don't mind the move here if you don't mind big swings in your stack. You've married yourself to the hand with the raise to flopping any gutshot or pair + backdoor draw, so it will increase variance but you may win one or two big pots and decide that's enough too.Vs big cards like AKs:pokenum -h Qs Js - 9h Th - 5d 5s - Ac Kc - Ah Qd - Jc Tc - As 4sHoldem Hi: 501942 enumerated boardscards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EVQs Js 34397 6.85 459247 91.49 8298 1.65 0.076Th 9h 98074 19.54 397164 79.13 6704 1.34 0.2015s 5d 103097 20.54 397976 79.29 869 0.17 0.206Ac Kc 115297 22.97 382236 76.15 4409 0.88 0.232Qd Ah 42778 8.52 451389 89.93 7775 1.55 0.091Jc Tc 43506 8.67 447669 89.19 10767 2.15 0.097As 4s 47120 9.39 450413 89.73 4409 0.88 0.096Vs overpair eg QQ:pokenum -h Qs Js - 9h Th - 5d 5s - Qc Qh - Ah Qd - Jc Tc - As 4sHoldem Hi: 501942 enumerated boardscards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EVQs Js 20135 4.01 477817 95.19 3990 0.79 0.043Th 9h 69410 13.83 428571 85.38 3961 0.79 0.1425s 5d 91450 18.22 409756 81.63 736 0.15 0.182Qc Qh 137951 27.48 361509 72.02 2482 0.49 0.276Qd Ah 51334 10.23 439561 87.57 11047 2.20 0.112Jc Tc 58201 11.60 438272 87.32 5469 1.09 0.121As 4s 57681 11.49 434960 86.66 9301 1.85 0.124

2. how was my flop play? i didn't want to bet out and have the PF raiser or capper to raise me right away, so i was looking to checkraise. but, the flop bet was immediately raised and almost the whole field folded, so i didn't think i could three-bet for value anymore.

I think given what yo had to work with, you played them both right. Again, note above that raising PF marries you to the hand even more than usual so you're calling a capped flop regardless. Regarding a c/r, it all depends on who bets. I don't think you want to isolate, so clearly you want to raise for value. You're somewhere between 22-29% to win on the flop against the hands I put in, so you must see the turn and you must (at least) call the turn. A 3-bet on the flop would be marginally profitably though if your opponents had exactly these holdings (assuming you didn't isolate anyone). I think you're better off with overcalls or raises behind you personally.Flop vs AKs:pokenum -h Qs Js - 9h Th - 5d 5s - Ac Kc - Ah Qd - Jc Tc - As 4s -- 8c 3h jdHoldem Hi: 595 enumerated boards containing 8c Jd 3hcards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EVQs Js 179 30.08 398 66.89 18 3.03 0.316Th 9h 174 29.24 405 68.07 16 2.69 0.3065s 5d 41 6.89 554 93.11 0 0.00 0.069Ac Kc 108 18.15 487 81.85 0 0.00 0.182Qd Ah 6 1.01 583 97.98 6 1.01 0.015Jc Tc 41 6.89 526 88.40 28 4.71 0.092As 4s 12 2.02 583 97.98 0 0.00 0.020Flop vs QQ:pokenum -h Qs Js - 9h Th - 5d 5s - Qc Qh - Ah Qd - Jc Tc - As 4s -- 8c 3h jdHoldem Hi: 595 enumerated boards containing 8c Jd 3hcards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EVQs Js 16 2.69 567 95.29 12 2.02 0.035Th 9h 132 22.18 452 75.97 11 1.85 0.2315s 5d 43 7.23 552 92.77 0 0.00 0.072Qc Qh 257 43.19 332 55.80 6 1.01 0.435Qd Ah 46 7.73 543 91.26 6 1.01 0.081Jc Tc 64 10.76 514 86.39 17 2.86 0.122As 4s 14 2.35 581 97.65 0 0.00 0.024Turn vs AKs:pokenum -h Qs Js - 9h Th - 5d 5s - Ac Kc - Ah Qd - Jc Tc - As 4s -- 8c 3h jd 6dHoldem Hi: 34 enumerated boards containing 8c Jd 6d 3hcards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EVQs Js 20 58.82 14 41.18 0 0.00 0.588Th 9h 6 17.65 28 82.35 0 0.00 0.1765s 5d 2 5.88 32 94.12 0 0.00 0.059Ac Kc 4 11.76 30 88.24 0 0.00 0.118Qd Ah 0 0.00 34 100.00 0 0.00 0.000Jc Tc 2 5.88 32 94.12 0 0.00 0.059As 4s 0 0.00 34 100.00 0 0.00 0.000Turn vs QQ:pokenum -h Qs Js - 9h Th - 5d 5s - Qc Qh - Ah Qd - Jc Tc - As 4s -- 8c 3h jd 6dHoldem Hi: 34 enumerated boards containing 8c Jd 6d 3hcards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EVQs Js 1 2.94 33 97.06 0 0.00 0.029Th 9h 4 11.76 30 88.24 0 0.00 0.1185s 5d 2 5.88 32 94.12 0 0.00 0.059Qc Qh 23 67.65 11 32.35 0 0.00 0.676Qd Ah 2 5.88 32 94.12 0 0.00 0.059Jc Tc 2 5.88 32 94.12 0 0.00 0.059As 4s 0 0.00 34 100.00 0 0.00 0.000So don't raise the turn, but definitely call. I think you played it right if you're willing to accept larger swings when you miss. Sorry for the verbose response but I was kind of curious about the number myself :)Jeff

[amarillotg 0]

i probably fold a 910s from utg+1 because even when you do flop a nice draw your playing the hand out of position. i prefer to play a drawing hand from a later position.however once your in the hand i see nothing wrong with limp raising pre-flop. with 7 players in i think your right in building a monster pot. i play the flop the same as long as im positive the pre-flop raiser or capper is going to bet. there's no one to sandwhich between you and the raisers so i think the check is best.

[Jadaki 0]

I don't see the benifit of building a huge pot PF with a drawing hand that is not going to hit all that often. I like playing 9 10s but not from that position and I definetly would not have 3 bet it PF.I like your play on the flop and turn.

[Nutcracker 0]

I love UTG+2's open farrell on the turn after cappping pf and calling a cap on the flop.

[rog 0]

I like it. I wouldn't normally 3-bet with this hand in this position, but you already have a raise and 4 callers coming back to you. Minimum 6 seeing the flop, and possibly 7, I like the raise for pot building. I have to think this is +EV. On the flop, I dont bet or raise unless I know I have callers. Check/call or check/raise depending on how many callers are in when it gets back to me. You did the right thing. No longer enough callers to justify putting the raises in yourself.

[Smasharoo 0]

You can make an argument for folding the 9-10 pre-flopNo you can't.

[BetItAll33 0]

You can make an argument for folding the 9-10 pre-flopNo you can't.

There's no argument for folding a 9Ts UTG+1? I'm folding this most of the time. Explain to me why I'm wrong so I can fix it.edit: let me explain my reasoning for folding1. out of position2. little high card strength3. fair chance I'm dominated4. speculative hand against unknown number of opponents which I might end up playing for a raise.OK, now you can rip my logic apart.

[squizie 0]

1. out of position 2. little high card strength 3. fair chance I'm dominated 4. speculative hand against unknown number of opponents which I might end up playing for a raise. This hand is not called for its high card strength and even if you are dominated you have a good shot to outdraw numerous hands that your opponents could be holding...You want to see the flop with a hand like this

[KDawgCometh 2]

the LRR is just dumb, and stupid really, and is one of the most gay things that can be done in limit. YOu're getting 16-1 on your call on the flop, and 32-3 on CR three betting it and there's tons of money in the pot, I kinda prefer you doing that and pumping the pot with the oesd

[KDawgCometh 2]

You can make an argument for folding the 9-10 pre-flopNo you can't.

[Actuary 3]

this thread is wrought with lousy advice.Some players don't want to build big pots (mulit-way) with:AQ109 suitedAAthen what do you want to build a big pot with ???or do you only want to play small pots.Please note that much of the strategy is based on the fact that you are playing opponents who want to see this flop with J4 s and K7 off.I'm just losing it..sorry..I'm sick of the dumb advice...and I'm likely guilty too...thank god for those who know better..please start to listen to them.oh..back to the hand.Sorry can't really add anything except to ditto a few others.

[DCSports92GSR 0]

this thread is wrought with lousy advice.Some players don't want to build big pots (mulit-way) with:AQ109 suitedAAthen what do you want to build a big pot with ???or do you only want to play small pots.

No. I wan't to play a big pot when I have a strong drawing hand. IN FUCKING POSITION. Jeeeeeesus people. Have you forgoten ALL about where the fuck you are to act after the flop? Fine. You want to build a big pot and not be able to control the size of it, limit the field if you needed to, isolate if you needed to... go ahead. But i'm not seriously going to sit here and have people that limp-re-raise with 9-10 Suited UTG+1 in a 10 man ring game tell me im a dumbass for telling them it was a bad re-raise. And why would I WANT a multi-way pot with a hand like AA? I haven't read SSHE. Maybe I should...but from everything I've heard on this board, does this book just COMPLETLEY overlook position?Smash I respect your input as I at least KNOW you are a good player, but you can seriously tell me that limp-re-raising with 9-10 suited in such early position is a good play?I don't mind the pre-flop call in an AVERAGE game, but if its a tight, agressive game, I really like FOLDING 9-10 suited pre flop UTG+1. For every flop that comes 8-q-j, theres 40 more that completley miss, or only give you a part of the board, and force you to play a marginal hand ( usually seccond pair ) out of position.

[Sysvr4 0]

I haven't read SSHE.  Maybe I should...but from everything I've heard on this board, does this book just COMPLETLEY overlook position?

Personally, I prefer that you don't read it :)Nevertheless, there's an important concept in the book discussed called "pot equity". In this case, assuming there's no overpair out to our 9T, we usually have a large enough equity edge to justify this raise. See my examples above.My personal opinion is that we're not certain enough that there's no overpair or that we're not dominated one or two ways enough to make the raise +EV. I suspect that, more often than not, the raise is neutral against this many opponents.IMO, the only position related argument here is whether or not to make the first call. In an aggressive game, I don't. In a passive game, I do.Jeff

[akishore 0]

the LRR is just dumb, and stupid really, and is one of the most gay things that can be done in limit. YOu're getting 16-1 on your call on the flop, and 32-3 on CR three betting it and there's tons of money in the pot, I kinda prefer you doing that and pumping the pot with the oesd

how exactly are these two situations different?1. 6 people limp to you in the big blind, you have JTs or T9s. you say you raise this, right?2. UTG raises, 5 people cold-call to you in the big blind, you have JTs or T9s. similar to situation #1, but the pot is twice as big. do you three-bet it or just call (you're closing the action)?just wondering, because situation #2 is very similar to the situation in this hand.aseem

[akishore 0]

one thing i'm noticing a lot in this thread..."you could be dominated""you could be up against an overpair""you should fold this in early position"you guys are giving my opponents too much credit.this is NOT a tight/aggressive game in the least bit. aggressive, sure, but tight? no way in hell.this game is pretty damn loose, and i think it's pretty clear that 10-9 suited has a decent equity edge.and Sysvr4, your numbers aren't accurate. you again give my opponents too many credible holdings. i can be up against an overpair, one overcard hand (like KQ) and the rest random hands, and i still have an equity edge.again, guys, this game is loose. my strong suitedness and connectedness makes up for any possibility of being dominated and/or up against an overpair (i.e. even though my top pair value isn't strong anymore, my suitedness and connectedness make up for it).position is still something i'm debating in my mind. SSHE says that JTs and T9s are clear limps in early position (in loose games) while 98s down are not. of course i don't fold this, but i'm wondering if three-betting and bloating the pot even more is smart when i'm out of position.what i mean is, if UTG raised, five people cold-called, i three-bet in a heartbeat with JTs or T9s on the button. but being in early position isn't attractive here. on the other hand, being on the direct right of the raiser is AWESOME (can we say checkraising ability to push our equity hard postflop?).aseem

[KDawgCometh 2]

the LRR is just dumb, and stupid really, and is one of the most gay things that can be done in limit. YOu're getting 16-1 on your call on the flop, and 32-3 on CR three betting it and there's tons of money in the pot, I kinda prefer you doing that and pumping the pot with the oesd

how exactly are these two situations different?1. 6 people limp to you in the big blind, you have JTs or T9s. you say you raise this, right?2. UTG raises, 5 people cold-call to you in the big blind, you have JTs or T9s. similar to situation #1, but the pot is twice as big. do you three-bet it or just call (you're closing the action)?just wondering, because situation #2 is very similar to the situation in this hand.aseem

you aren't closing the action because in this case you have someone directly behind you that was the original raiser, and that leaves a cap on PF as a possibility, whereas Tim's hand, he was closing the action. I also don't like commiting three bets here PF with a hand that is a drawing hand. Obviously I don't have any problems with you playing the hand in the first place, I just don't think the LRR makes all that much sense considering that the first raiser is to your direct left and could very likely cap PF, to which we have then commited 2BBs before we have seen three more cards

[screech 0]

you could be dominated" "you could be up against an overpair"

None of this matters as I doubt your hoping to win with T9s in a 7-way pot with a pair. You bring up a good point Aseem about why you would raise T9s against 6 limpers, but not reraise against 6 opponents with a raise already PF. I think this has to due with the fact that your opponents are probably playing better hands after a raise, but in this situation, I don't think that applies.I think the main reason is that in the first situation, you are raising to build a somewhat big pot so that your opponents become tied to it post flop. In the second situation, your opponents are already tied to a big pot. Limp reraising just cuts down on your implied odds. That being said, against 6 opponents, with a hand that plays great mulitway, I think your PF raise has value. You'll frequently fold the flop, but when you hit, you are bound to win a huge pot. I'm just wondering if cutting down your implied odds is worth it. This seems somewhat similar to the question as to whether or not to raise AJo on the button after a lot of limpers. This is an interesting hand PF IMO, and I hope it generates a lot of discussion.

[akishore 0]

you aren't closing the action because in this case you have someone directly behind you that was the original raiser, and that leaves a cap on PF as a possibility, whereas Tim's hand, he was closing the action.

well, if you raise, you technically aren't closing the action anymore. even in tim's hand, someone could have three-bet after he raised. but, i agree that it's LESS likely that you'll be in for three bets since no one showed strength in tim's hand.

I also don't like commiting three bets here PF with a hand that is a drawing hand. Obviously I don't have any problems with you playing the hand in the first place, I just don't think the LRR makes all that much sense considering that the first raiser is to your direct left and could very likely cap PF, to which we have then commited 2BBs before we have seen three more cards

if we have an equity edge, don't we WANT to get in as much money as possible?and don't use the term "drawing hand" please :-) . JTs is as much a drawing hand here as AKs is. the point is that we believe we have an equity edge with both. and by the way, being on the right of the raiser is actually ideal. we have a really great ability to checkraise the flop for value or to bet knowing he will raise when we want to protect our hand.aseem

[DiverDown4 0]

1. how good/bad was my limp-three-bet preflop? with seven players in, i just couldn't help myself. i felt like i had a clear equity edge and my hand just did so awesome multiway. 2. how was my flop play? i didn't want to bet out and have the PF raiser or capper to raise me right away, so i was looking to checkraise. but, the flop bet was immediately raised and almost the whole field folded, so i didn't think i could three-bet for value anymore. 1. I like this move occasionally, however I would much rather do it with JQs, not because its a stronger hand, but if you are to make a straight, its always the nut straight, the flush is higher and pairs q's and J's obviously beat 9's and 10's. Again I would probably do the same, considering that the opportunity to cap a hand like JQs with 7 players comes along rarely. 2. I'm definately seeing the river with this hand. Pots way to large to fold. I'm not sure of the math with 2 cards to come. I would say you probably can figure 9.5 outs. 8 for the straight and I believe 1.5 for a backdoor flush. I guess if bet the flop, and capped the flop, you may be able to get 99, TT, 77 to fold, in which case you could MAYBE win by spiking a 9 or a T. But I think im way off here.

[DCSports92GSR 0]

Yeah, It's been a bad day for me and sorry if I took out any of my moving woes ( yeah, we're moving... thats why im so cranky ) on any of you. I don't mean to try and sound like a know it all. Let me explain why you would want this hand in LP rather than EP.Lets say for the sake of this example, that we're in the same situation. We limp-re-raised UTG +1 with 9-10 of hearts. Now lets assume that the flop came out 8-J-Q rainbow. SWEET! We got the nuts! But... the big blind leads in to you. What do you do? If you raise, you risk shutting out alot of players that could call one bet here, and if you call, you lose alot of value when you absolutley have the best hand. What happens if a 9 or a 10 comes on the turn? How do you get in extra bets on the turn? Do you NOW raise the BB's lead? But why would you do that? Most people aren't going to call two bets cold there with a hand that would normally call one bet. What I'm saying is, with this same scenario in LATE position, we have ALOT more options. We can call the flop and raise the turn after everyone calls the BB's lead, we can RAISE the flop, and BET the turn. As you can see we get ALOT more value from our hand playing it in late position, which is why I tighten up ALOT in early position. Its too hard to make the maximum ammount of money when you hit your hand.

[Steppin Razor 0]

you guys are giving my opponents too much credit.this is NOT a tight/aggressive game in the least bit. aggressive, sure, but tight? no way in hell.this game is pretty damn loose, and i think it's pretty clear that 10-9 suited has a decent equity edge.

I usually assume this is the case when someone posts a hand from Party Poker, but probably worth mentioning it in the orig. post.To me the only problem with the play is that you're almost tied to the hand. You're forced to pay a lot to keep drawing while OOP.

[Sysvr4 0]

and Sysvr4, your numbers aren't accurate. you again give my opponents too many credible holdings. i can be up against an overpair, one overcard hand (like KQ) and the rest random hands, and i still have an equity edge.

Ok, to be fair, what holdings would you like me to give them? More to the point, what in your mind is the probability, in card distribution terms, that your opponents will have cards that give you the "equity edge" when you make this move? Because that is about the only reasonably question to ask when considering whether to raise this.I can't tell you it was a bad play. But unless your opponents all showed down, you can't say for sure it's a good one. That's been my point from the start.Jeff