Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Actuary

reading about it is lots easier. lhe aq aug 9

Recommended Posts

In an average game, yes... im either limping or more than likley, FOLDING AQos UTG. Why? Because I am HORRIBLY out of position. I HATE playing out of position. In a normal limit he game, I play tight as hell up front and really start opening up my game as I get closer to the button. Thats fine by me. I WANT my UTG raise to get respect, and I WANT to be able to narrow the field if I get a hand like AA or KK. If you're showing down AQos, your UTG raises aren't going to get the respect you need to be able to narrow the field when you really want to limit the number of players that see the flop.I'm not so much as FAULTING anyone for playing AQos UTG, as I am stating my opinion and how I myself would play it. There are ALOT of different winning styles in poker. My style, is to play ultra-conservative up front, and loose as a goose out back. And I personally think that folding AQos UTG isn't costing me any money. Its too hard to control the action, thin the field, build a pot and a million other things... from early position.My rule is basically, if I raise with it UTG, and don't feel comfortable with capping a 3-bet... then I shouldn't have even been in the pot to begin with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
FWIW, I'll stop posting hands here, conicidentally, I say that on the one Daniel picked out of the hat, but that's just coincidence...I appreciate his time.
Actuary, stop being a donk. You know we enjoy your hand posts. One thing you might want to try is posting the hand, and your thoughts on each stage of betting. Why you are making the play you are... and what other options you considered but decided against.Seriously, the motives behind each decision you make are of much greater importance than the outcome of the hand.
soap box..etc to follow..Note I also said "Until I'm able to better sort the good from the absolute horrible advice given here, it's best to remain quiet"So I'll very likely return. I often do put commentary, but I really think leaving it out is good for objective feed back, too. So adding it in a later post can workIf I post again, I may cut the hand off at each move.Future street biasis opinions, imo.How much better is the flop raise, if MP3 folds and BB checks the turn?Note Mp3 had a gutshot and paired the turn, and called down. The chance to get that "dead money" is worth something. It just seems like anytime a "scare" card comes we can't make aggressive plays to protect the pot (and by protecting against flushes, I meant to "make them pay more to draw", or get them to fold correctly or not).My impression from reading and attempting the Quizzes in SSHE is that aggressive play in raised pots is essential. Maybe they don't have enough examples of when you should fold in there. But there are plenty of times raising, while being an underdog, is advocated. And I'm not sure i'm behind here...give it 20-55%. equity..just ball parking.We're not always behind just because someone raises again, right?Maybe he's trying to make a play as well..and now feels committed to bet.I doubt he knew he was ahead/tied...but had to keep betting.It's the hardest thing for me to read. Am I ahead?Usually what happens is the "caller" has A6 and I have KQ on a K66 board. And I'm OOP, betting the whole way down...no other worrisome cards...and he calls down with A6 suited, (having made a kinda loose pf call..which doesn't bother me)..but never raising with trips and top kicker (may have saved me $$).Of course, as I'm betting..I think.."gee who's calling this that can't beat KQ. Oh well, I think I'm supposed to keep betting here because they will chase anything, and I'm likely ahead of the typical player." Then when the cards are exposed, then its "of course"..and I'm the table idiot.I't hilarious to me the Daniel asked Eric about this hand.I'm sure pros don't play the way PP donks do.Also, I acknowledge that Daniel and Eric have probably palyed plenty of sshev against bad players, so they are more than qualified to answer...duh. I'm just curious if Eric put himself in the circumstances of these games...and not those of a typical higher stakes one.While, I'm ranting....I couldn't play worth beans before reading Card Player Mag, this forum, SSHE, and posting hands. Now I raise much more on pre-flop and on flops which was agianst natural instinct before, in the "Bingo Poker" days. So when others are critical of this new effort and smack me down, I get confused. JUst being a sissy, perhaps.thanks, for caring.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

DCwhy worry about narrowing the field when the typical caller in sshe will have a worse holding than you?If you raise, it's not like only the good hands call..but now the 67s is playing for 2 bets.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The result of this hand shows how important reads can be. But just because he had AQ, doesn't mean you can call him down. If you had seen him overplay hands before like this, though, then it would be an easy call down. In fact, you would want to raise the flop to get heads up with the overaggressive player.Regarding preflop play of AQ, raising is definitely correct. I'd rather have AQ on position, but I'll take in UTG all day. For people who don't like rasing these hands out of position, you should start trying it to get comfortable with the situations that arise. You're throwing away money if you open fold this hand.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
In an average game, yes... im either limping or more than likley, FOLDING AQos UTG. Why? Because I am HORRIBLY out of position. I HATE playing out of position. In a normal limit he game, I play tight as hell up front and really start opening up my game as I get closer to the button. Thats fine by me. I WANT my UTG raise to get respect, and I WANT to be able to narrow the field if I get a hand like AA or KK. If you're showing down AQos, your UTG raises aren't going to get the respect you need to be able to narrow the field when you really want to limit the number of players that see the flop.I'm not so much as FAULTING anyone for playing AQos UTG, as I am stating my opinion and how I myself would play it. There are ALOT of different winning styles in poker. My style, is to play ultra-conservative up front, and loose as a goose out back. And I personally think that folding AQos UTG isn't costing me any money. Its too hard to control the action, thin the field, build a pot and a million other things... from early position.My rule is basically, if I raise with it UTG, and don't feel comfortable with capping a 3-bet... then I shouldn't have even been in the pot to begin with.
If your UTG raises are getting respect, then unless someone wakes up with a hand, you will most likely be playing against just the blinds, thereby getting position... :club:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I probably wouldn't raise with AQo UTG. I might call, I might fold, but 4 of 5 times I'm not bringing it in for a raise there.
I think you just might dislike money. A-Q offsuit is a standard PF raise in an unopened pot.... yes, even from UTG.
wow, I can't see folding in this spot either

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
would a flop raise be a lot better if the pot were larger and there were more than one player to act behind?
I'd imagaine the bigger the pot, the more raising makes sense.More players means 2 things...more money...and more likely to not win.If the first out weighs the later enough, raiisng is good, even as an under dog..as I understand.This pot was marginally big..with potential..when I raised the flop. Essentially, that is important. Perhaps it was not big enough to fight for..but then after the 3-bet..I felt it was big enough to call down. Maybe I stuck myself; however, before the flop 3-bet, I would have put my chances at 40%+. Too optimistic perhaps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I probably wouldn't raise with AQo UTG. I might call, I might fold, but 4 of 5 times I'm not bringing it in for a raise there.
I think you just might dislike money. A-Q offsuit is a standard PF raise in an unopened pot.... yes, even from UTG.
wow, I can't see folding in this spot either
I haven't read SSHE, and I probably should. But I do believe ( I can't check since its packed up.... moving tomorrow ) that theres a paragraph in the SS2 LHE Section by Jennifer on this exact scenario, and if my memory serves me right, she reccomends folding AQos UTG as well.Im not saying raising with it is + or - EV, and I'm not saying FOLDING it is + or - EV. Im saying that I like to avoid playing marginal hands out of position as much as possible, and preserve a tight image from early position.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I haven't read ss2 yet either, if thats true I'll be surprised -- I'm here to learn -- can anyone verify? Thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I haven't read ss2 yet either, if thats true I'll be surprised -- I'm here to learn -- can anyone verify? Thanks
No, I was wrong. I just un-packed it and found the section I was talking about. It was the part about playing A-Q to an EP raiser, not playign AQ UTG. She only lists hands to play from early position, and doesn't list UTG hands specifically. A-Q IS on her list of hands to play from early position. Maybe its just me then. I would GLADLY raise AQos from UTG+2 and maybe even UTG+1 after UTG and / or UTG+1 has folded... but I just hate raising with it when I'm first to act. I really like to stick to my rule that if I raised UTG and I'm not comfortable capping a 3-bet, then I shouldn't have been in there in the first place.Anyways, sorry that my opinion has stirred up so much shit. ROFL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is a reason that guys like Doyle consider ace queen to be a trouble hand, and it sounds like you are in agreement with them, but maybe not for the right reasons... :?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
daniel gives great advice.
brave.Yes he does.I’ll go Aseem here for a bit.Credibility theory is the concept that given a small sample of the most relavent data, one must rely on massive general information to help make a decision. The more vague and limited the specific situation data is, the more the general must be relied on. Like writing up a Group Insurance policy for NY City Firemen…We can look at past expericne at that station…but we would also include much data from other stations and cities. The amount of weight one allocates to the “General” vs “the Specific” is the decision element of applying Credibility TheoryHow does this relate to poker. Well..if you know that the typical small stakes lhe player makes bad descisions, you can discount what they do, whether it’s calling, raising, c/r, whatever. Then you can also try to accumulate data and watch this specific player to see how to tweak your impression from the typical player.Another example of this, is AQ on a bord of Q72 rainbow is stronger than AQ on a KQ3 suited board…but the likelihood of someone having a K is not any higher now, but lower. (Bayesian). Of course, the reason the AQ is weaker here is in case a K is held by an opponent. When villan bets out, we have another Credibility situation, for are we to put 80% weight into his bet as a indicator he has a K?…and 20% into the pure math that he does not? Even if we had a table of his 3-bettting hands and the percentage likelihood of each holding…we still don’t have the full knowledge of what his flop lead means. We can only assign something like 15% chance he’s betting a Q, etcTo wrap this up…I think some players actions should be discounted more than others, and one should rely more on the math…as the villan is non-conforming. I may not put enough emphasis on the actions of my opponents as an indicaotr of their holdings because we see so much irrational behavior. Over time, I’ll learn to shape my Credibility curves to more properly compute the real odds that AQ is still worth palying and maybe raising in that situation.Regardless of its application here, Credibiltiy Theory has a place in poker.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
also, DC, saying to fold AQ made me puke. I raise ATs in that spot.
UTG, 10 handed, raising with AT? More times than not that's an easy fold for me. And AQ os is very rarely a raise in that position.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like pretty much everything that's been said here, but I do have a comment. In my experience playing small stakes on Party, typically when you get raised (without a read), you can be pretty confident that the raiser has you beat. Especially if you have a mediocre holding such as middle pair. Generally small stakes players raise with nothing worse than top pair face card kicker. However, if you have the guy pegged as an aggressive player, it's possible to see him raising with a hand you can beat here.I also want to say that what I just wrote is by no means a criticism of the way you ended up playing the hand. I don't know whether I would have raised that flop (actually, it's possible I may have folded with a higher pair on the board and my AQ likely to be slaughtered if I'm behind). However, it's a tough decision I probably would've stayed in for at least the turn. The main thing is that I by no means have the discipline to lay this hand down to the flop 3-bet or to not call down in the hopes of getting info on the opponent if nothing else. I really like the discussion a hand like this can engender.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry I disagree with Daniel here, Raising with AQ adds value here against bad players and the 3-bet really doesn't mean he has a quality hand. At .5/1 and 1/2 people will 3-bet with JQ even to an UTG raise. I woulda 4-bet the flop to cover up AQ and then bet the flop, if he raises that after your preflop cap then he has definitely got the king, call once try hit one of 5 outs or give yourself a straight for 9 outs on the river.Then it's your choice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I haven't read SSHE, and I probably should. But I do believe ( I can't check since its packed up.... moving tomorrow ) that theres a paragraph in the SS2 LHE Section by Jennifer on this exact scenario, and if my memory serves me right, she reccomends folding AQos UTG as well.I have SS2 in front of me right now, Jen says play A-Q UTG and on a passive table even play ATs, I don't see why you would fold those hands here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
people will 3-bet with JQ even to an UTG raise.
there are many hands that Sklansky (in Holdem for Advanced Players)advocates 3-betting, from many positions, depending on the table. For example, if you limp with jack ten suited from early position, and it is raised (and sometimes re-raised) behind you, he advocates putting in the occasional raise yourself with a hand like that. Hands that play well multi-way are good hands to do such a thing. Ace queen does not play well multiway... 8)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am just telling Daniel that you can't just give credit for AA KK AK when there are so many other hands that the 3-bettor could have....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ace queen does not play well multiway... 8)
not that it's gospel or anything but ....SSHE p313Do the best top pair hands - ace-ten, king-jack, and better - make more or less money against an increasing number of callers with bad hands?A: MoreObviously this is only the case pre-flop - you don't want to be playing AQ for top pair against a co-ordinated board with a large field. However, I think SSHE is probably right here. AQ does well against a large field of loose players for top pair/good kicker value. If the flop comes QT2 rainbow you most likely have the best hand and it will remain the best hand often enough to be profitable.Of course this is mainly in the context of a lot of limpers. With a pre-flop raise and a number of cold callers its value diminishes a lot (at least in my mind).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
also, DC, saying to fold AQ made me puke. I raise ATs in that spot.
Heck, even Hilger's "kindling" recommends raising AQ in EP. Oh, and AJs also.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...