what i'm sure is a common question...

[Sean_ec 0]

I feel like I have a good understand of the basics of the game. I grasp pot odds , I understand position. I have taken lately to playing a lot of hands and getting a good feel. I've started reading my first book on poker. I look at this as a chance to really try to excel at something I have a serious affection for. I however, keep suffering at one game I goto weekly. $20 buy in, 6-10 people, fairly fast blinds, starting with 1000 chips. The beats I face are viscious, its acknowledged by people. So I decided, I am obviously doing something if my "bad beats" are this consistant. I start playing online every day in similar tournaments and reading everythign I can. And it seems to still happen. While I see most of you as a little over cocky and elitist in your lording over the information you've aquired with poker or what comes naturally to you. I'm really looking for some honest opinions from a few genuine people on what I can do to really push my game farther and be able to overcome some people that I feel like I should be able to beat, but seem to alway get killed by.I guess I am just very frustrated but then very intrigued by the fact frustration does not hinder my love or need for more poker, and think that you know, if you don't have any other passions in life why not really go "all in" with the one you have.I don't know. I guess the sum of all this is : What should I do to get better? But really, whats the next step when you realize you could commit seriously and want to but there is somethign missing at the moment that even natural understanding can't overcome..

[JesseW316 0]

Good first post.The only thing you can do to get over your hump is to put your head down and start playing.Please give me some information about the types of games you are going to play and the stakes/buy-ins/limits. I will respond with everything you need to pick up in order to become a much better player.

[Randy Reed 0]

While I see most of you as a little over censored and elitist in your lording over the information you've aquired with poker or what comes naturally to youWell, if you refer to me as El Conquistador, I will help mentor you young lad.

[KDawgCometh 2]

While I see most of you as a little over censored and elitist in your lording over the information you've aquired with poker or what comes naturally to you

while I think this line is completely unneccessary, I'll tell you waht I think you should do. FOr one, as far as the home game, do one of two things, ask your friends if they might want to do longer blind rounds, or ask your friends if they want to start with more chips. I suggest that you play as much as possible. What is your best game, do you like playing cash games, or tournies, and once you figure that stuff out, put some money online and start playing a lot, and be sure to post as many trouble hands as possible, that way you can get advice from a variety of sources. gl

[Sean_ec 0]

While I see most of you as a little over censored and elitist in your lording over the information you've aquired with poker or what comes naturally to youWell, if you refer to me as El Conquistador, I will help mentor you young lad.

This is inresponse to both posts below me.The games I play weekly LIVE are with 6-10 people, $20 buy in texas no limit.I play online frequently and truthfully don't touch cash games, because I want a decent roll first. I am succesful at 5 handed tourney tables, very succesful. Call it understanding the cheap buy in people and a basic intuition.I'd like to play everything. I've recently found that on a new awesome sit ethat i'm sure some of you know , Craigslist, you can find some great tourneys that enthusiasts are setting up.But mainly, the games that frustrates me and baffle me are:$20 buy in. Average : 8 people.Starting chips : 1000Blinds start at : 10/20 then, 20/40, 40/80, 50/100, 100/200, 200/400.Lots of callers with marginal stuff.I just feel like I tried so hard to play them the best i could but kept getting drawn out, I just hope its bad luck. Not ineptitude.

[wrto4556 0]

just do it

[KDawgCometh 2]

$20 buy in. Average : 8 people. Starting chips : 1000 Blinds start at : 10/20 then, 20/40, 40/80, 50/100, 100/200, 200/400. Lots of callers with marginal stuff.

wow, this structure blows. see if you can add in a 15/30 level, 30/60 level, 75/150 level, 150/300 level, this should solve some of the possible problems, also see if you can get the starting chips bumped up to 2K, that might help you out a bit more

[jayboogie 0]

First of all you need to be honest with yourself and ask yourself if you really are playing well and just getting unlucky each and every single time or if you are making mistakes. Playing great poker doesn't neccessarily mean winning everytime, sometimes it's losing less when it could have been more. Playing great poker is making the optimal decision each and every single time your put to one.Second of all, you need to get in the hands and the experience to get better. You can read all the books in the world, but nothing makes up for table experience. There isn't some magical solution that someone can tell you to become a good player, you have to figure it out on your own. It comes with lots of time, patience and discipline. A book will tell you to do this or that in a certain situation, but playing on your own, you will learn the reasoning behind it all.Lastly, start small and work your way up. You're probably going to lose when you first get started, that's just the way it is for everyone.

[akishore 0]

holy shit, poker is the most intricate, complex, INSANELY fucking difficult game to master.good luck, and don't get too addicted and obsessed like me.aseem

[myOakleys 0]

it sounds to me like your playing too agressivlyyour putting to much money out there with the second best hand(this is obvious if u lose alot)i didnt read anyone else's posts in this so someone might have already said this,just dont play such marginal hands and play a little more conservativelythis way u wont lose as much, and if u build up a reputation for being a little more conservative and not always being on tilt, you will be able to buy the pot alot moreallowing you to play with the 2nd best handidk if your vicious beats are just bad beats but u said it happens all the time, it sounds like you try to buy the pot to muchmy advice to u is be a little more patient with your cards and they will come to u aventually

[PrtyPSux 0]

I suppose you play online tourneys and thats what you want to improve on, right? Well, let me just start by telling you that the amount of frustration that you are experiencing will only get bigger once you become a better player. When you are a good player you minimize your mistakes and maximize your opponents mistakes, therefor you will suffer uglier beats, its inevitable. Online Tournament poker is frustrating as hell if you are a decent player, but you cant let it affect you..this is something I have to learn myself, especially now that I have started to take MTTs seriously. You see, if I get beat by a 2 outer in my 2/4 game, Im happy, the dude is an idiot and is now on my buddylist. BUT if I get beat by a 2 outer in a tourney, Im out, I lost my buy-in, 1-3 hrs of my day and a chance to cash for a decent payday. In MTT's you are going to experience this so much that it can really start to mess w/ your head...WE CANT LET IT!!! just to give you an Idea of how frustrating and mentally draining tourney poker can be, here is a re-cap of my past two weeks:2 weekends ago, played 20-25 tourneys cashed 1 and lost $400-ishmonday- took a break.tuesday- played 3 tourneys, cashed 1wed-played 3 tourneys, placed 2nd in 1 for 2500thursday through this tues-played 22 tourneys, cashed 3 and lost 400 ishtoday- played 6 tourneys and 1 SNG, final tabled 2, made ITM other 2, and won 1 SNG made $350As you can see you can go on big dryspells (mine are probably minimal compared to some others) that can really make you doubt your abilities and impare your judgement. dont let it! Anyway, It seems that you are a novice player that might know a bit more than your pals at the homegame, you probably have a lot to learn though. Read books, forums and Articles.. But more importantly PLAY PLAY PLAY, there are things that books just cant teach you, you can only learn these things by gaining experience, NO book can teach you how to call an all-in on the river w/ A high...but with time, you'll be able to do these type of things effectively. Honestly, Im not really sure what you want to know extactly. It seems like you are just a bit frustrated because you think you are better than your friends but you still cant beat that fishy game (If I do a search for my first 20 or so posts, I bet one of them is a thread on how I couldnt beat my fish friends), I really cant tell you how to beat your homegame, other than tell you to play ABC poker. But I think I gave you an Idea of what you need to do to improve your game in general. I also tried to give you an Idea of what you can expect from playing tourneys (SWINGS!!). Hope this helped. Below is a list of the books that I would recommend.Harrington on Holdem vol 1 and 2Theory of Poker (general poker)Small Stakes Holdem (Limit holdem)Super SystemHoldem Poker for the advanced playerHoward ledderer's DVD's (I only recommend this if you feel you are a real beginner. If you are, I would recommend watching this first, playing a bit and THEN reading books. Some of the stuff you'll read in books you might not understand, this dvd is good for a novice to gain some insight on the basics of NL holdem..its pretty solid basic info IMO...at least thats how I started :-) )GL

[Sean_ec 0]

it sounds to me like your playing too agressivlyyour putting to much money out there with the second best hand(this is obvious if u lose alot)i didnt read anyone else's posts in this so someone might have already said this,just dont play such marginal hands and play a little more conservativelythis way u wont lose as much, and if u build up a reputation for being a little more conservative and not always being on tilt, you will be able to buy the pot alot moreallowing you to play with the 2nd best handidk if your vicious beats are just bad beats but u said it happens all the time, it sounds like you try to buy the pot to muchmy advice to u is be a little more patient with your cards and they will come to u aventually

I guess I should have been more specific about my beats . We played 2 games.In the first one I had recently shown a lot of strength with my cards then was able to buy a few pots with some solid hands, which really started to agitate people at the table. I decided to sit back and wait for a very good hand and take advantage of a sloppy call. At this point the blinds were at 50-100. I found myself holding A A. I had about 1500 in chips. I raised to 200. I was called by the big stack/small blind to my left. Flop came J 8 2. Big stack acted first with a 200 bet, I raised with 400 more. He called. Turn was a 4. He put out 200 more, I went all in. The board was a rainbow. He calls and turns over A 3. River comes, its a 5.I'd love to know how to play that hand better, because I feel like this is the kind of beat I suffer often. And there must be a reason and cure.PS. I appreciate all the advice you guys have given me. I suspected most of it, and took in all the new stuff. Really glad to be part of these boards now. They've been very entertaining and helpful.

[dms26 3]

I guess I should have been more specific about my beats . We played 2 games.In the first one I had recently shown a lot of strength with my cards then was able to buy a few pots with some solid hands, which really started to agitate people at the table. I decided to sit back and wait for a very good hand and take advantage of a sloppy call. At this point the blinds were at 50-100. I found myself holding A A.  I had about 1500 in chips. I raised to 200. I was called by the big stack/small blind to my left. Flop came J 8 2. Big stack acted first with a 200 bet, I raised with 400 more. He called. Turn was a 4. He put out 200 more, I went all in. The board was a rainbow. He calls and turns over A 3. River comes, its a 5.I'd love to know how to play that hand better, because I feel like this is the kind of beat I suffer often. And there must be a reason and cure.

I hate mini raises, you price people in to call and let them hang around cheaply. Raise preflop 500-600 I prefer 600. Now you already have a decent size pot on the flop, so when he bets you push in, if he still calls there is nothing you can do.Bad beats are a sign that you are getting money in the pot as a big favorite, so don't worry about it too much. It's very frustrating but it's how you make money in the long run. Poker is just one long session.

[BetItAll33 0]

At this point the blinds were at 50-100. I found myself holding A A.  I had about 1500 in chips. I raised to 200.

You raised the blinds from 100 to 200? Unless you were mixing up your play or trying to induce a call from one of the blinds you should be raising more. Think about this play from the big blinds perspective (I know it was the small blind that beat you.)You raise to 200, small blind calls for 200, big blind is already invested for 100 and the pot is offering him 5 to 1 on a call. Which two cards in the deck do you think would be a 5 to 1 underdog, even against aces? None. This problem is even worse when you have a good hand that isn't a monster. 3-5 big blinds is a typical raise. Pick up Harrington on Hold 'em.

[mk 11]

It seems your dilemma is more a psychological one than anything else. You want to know how to stay sane playing tournament poker. I play a lot more tourneys than most of the strategy regulars (as a hunch), and I will share with you what I started doing last year in order to remain sans straight jacket. It isn't groundbreaking or anything, but it doesn't hurt.Keep track of the times when you get your money in with the best hand and it holds up. You only tend to remember the bad beats when you go broke or close to it. Seriously, just keep a little tally somewhere. It'll help you.

[lboarts 0]

When I read the OP, I immediately thought you werent pushing hard enough when you had the hand won. Then your subsequent post confirmed it.I know its cliche, but it is true when people say its better to win a small pot than lose a large pot. When you feel you have the best hand, you should try to take the pot right then and there. This is even more true when playing weak/bad players. The more cards you let them see, the more chance their going to pick up a draw, even a weak one, and play it.When I say taking the pot right then and there, I mean not giving him pot odds to call. Push, and push hard. Understanding pot odds will help you, but keep in mind that bad players on a draw don't care about pot odds. All they see is a chance to win the hand, so they'll stick around and hope for the best.As other posters said, practice is the key. Reading is fine, and you should pick up a book or 2 (which ones, I'm not sure, as I've never read one), but experience far outweighs study, IMO. As far as where to start, I'd recommend you research bankroll management and understand it thoroughly. Your first online deposit to a site will be exciting. Anytime you have to deposit again on that site will be disappointing. Good luck with your online adventures.

[rog 0]

Some advice:1) realize that single table freezeouts with fast blind structures are all about luck. Dont beat yourself up over the beats you get here.2) Look at your beats. Were you favored to win when the money went in? Did you bet the draws out but they stayed anyway? Are you encouraging suckouts to draw against you?3) Post some hands in the strat forum. For the love of all that is good in the world use the converter or the elitist lords will rain fire and brimstone on you. 4) If you dont know the math, learn the math. "Right and wrong" is about reads and math. If you dont know the math, even if your reads are bang-on, you wont know if your play is correct. Theory of Poker is best for laying the foundations but most good books cover as much as is necessary. 5) Offer weekly sacrifices to the deities both major and minor on FCP. For they are a vengefull pantheon, and demand your humble reverence.

[myOakleys 0]

yah you played the hand pretty good, just rais to about 400 pre flop, but if he was the big stack like u said i think he still would have calledbut yeah u cant do anything about a bad beat you just have not let it get inside your head

[rog 0]

Which two cards in the deck do you think would be a 5 to 1 underdog, even against aces?  None.  

Ax is a bigger dog than 5:1. Somewhere around 13:1. Any two unconnected unsuited undercards are about 7 or 8:1. heh heh...sorry to get picky. I absolutely agree with the spirit of your post though. Min-raises suck.

[Sean_ec 0]

Wow. Didn't think i'd get so many replies.Really appreciate it guys.

[GWCGWC 83]

Sean, as you can see, almost everyone is interested in giving you some helpfull advise. You didn't get flamed too badly wrt the lording and elitist comments. Poker players smell weakness and react and these comments were just a touch defensive. what you gonna do? no worries.I would recommend reading every single strategy post and use the other forums, including general, as a bordem prevention devise. Post some hands if you need to and get some insight from other players. It sounds like you've thought about the hands you've played and reflected on what you could've done differently. The more you do this, the better player you will become. good luck

[pwoblo 0]

I don't think you can seriously be disappointed about how you played that bad beat hand. I'd say the only thing is raise at least 2.5xBB. Other than that, you got all the money in when you were a huge favorite with those small reraises, so good job.I'm guessing that you might be losing due to the nasty blind structure. When it gets like this and you are playing fishies, I think it's a matter of value betting (as much as they will call) with top pair/decent kicker or better. Also, avoid getting in marginal situations. You can do better than to call off a third of your stack with 77 even if you are probably ahead, because you could always be way behind. There's always better places to get fishies' money.So like everyone else, I say play ABC as in no bluff, value bet, and avoid marginal situations.

[Sean_ec 0]

Sean, as you can see, almost everyone is interested in giving you some helpfull advise. You didn't get flamed too badly wrt the lording and elitist comments. Poker players smell weakness and react and these comments were just a touch defensive. what you gonna do? no worries.I would recommend reading every single strategy post and use the other forums, including general, as a bordem prevention devise. Post some hands if you need to and get some insight from other players. It sounds like you've thought about the hands you've played and reflected on what you could've done differently. The more you do this, the better player you will become. good luck

You know, I was wondering when someone would point out the elitist comments. I have to say, that was written in frustration and probably hedging a defense for the posters that just wanted to flame me for whining about bad beats. I've been on a few forums for other genres and know how these boards work.But like I said, very please and appreciative of the responses.Sorry for the cheap shot, was still steaming.

[LPY2005 0]

it sounds to me like your playing too agressivly your putting to much money out there with the second best hand (this is obvious if u lose alot) i didnt read anyone else's posts in this so someone might have already said this, just dont play such marginal hands and play a little more conservatively this way u wont lose as much, and if u build up a reputation for being a little more conservative and not always being on tilt, you will be able to buy the pot alot more allowing you to play with the 2nd best hand idk if your vicious beats are just bad beats but u said it happens all the time, it sounds like you try to buy the pot to much my advice to u is be a little more patient with your cards and they will come to u aventually

This may have already been touched on, I didn't read the whole thread, but I disagree. I think most bad beats come from not playing agressively enough, especially preflop. If you have a big starting hand, raise enough to get rid of the garbage hands. Then if there is something threatening to your high pocket pair on the flop, like a flush or straight draw, raise again and make them pay dearly for their draw. You will still run into bad players getting lucky with bad cards. You will even flop the nuts straight and have some donkey put all his chips in for the backdoor flush draw and beat you, but over time you will win their money by making them pay dearly to make a lucky draw against you. A lot of bad beats are high pocket cards getting crushed by a small two pair, set, flush, straight etc. The reason is it is too hard to let go if your hand doesn't improve with the flop. The only time I want a lot of people preflop is either with pocket aces with a bunch of all in bets or to limp in with a small pair or small suited connectors. That way if I hit my set, straight, flush etc I have a good chance at getting paid off, but if I don't I can easily let it go for a minimal loss. Other than that I can't really help you as I'm new to the game myself. I definitely agree that the poker books will help you eliminate some of your bad beats.

[HtotheNootch 0]

This may have already been touched on, I didn't read the whole thread, but I disagree. I think most bad beats come from not playing agressively enough, especially preflop. If you have a big starting hand, raise enough to get rid of the garbage hands. Then if there is something threatening to your high pocket pair on the flop, like a flush or straight draw, raise again and make them pay dearly for their draw. You will still run into bad players getting lucky with bad cards. You will even flop the nuts straight and have some donkey put all his chips in for the backdoor flush draw and beat you, but over time you will win their money by making them pay dearly to make a lucky draw against you. A lot of bad beats are high pocket cards getting crushed by a small two pair, set, flush, straight etc. The reason is it is too hard to let go if your hand doesn't improve with the flop. The only time I want a lot of people preflop is either with pocket aces with a bunch of all in bets or to limp in with a small pair or small suited connectors. That way if I hit my set, straight, flush etc I have a good chance at getting paid off, but if I don't I can easily let it go for a minimal loss. Other than that I can't really help you as I'm new to the game myself. I definitely agree that the poker books will help you eliminate some of your bad beats.

That's very true.My guess is that the OP slowplays too much.