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alf13

playing against a habitual raiser....aug 8

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I keep almost every single interesting hand I am involved in and I had a discussion with a friend about this one and we disagreed on the course of action and my play. I need input.Now some backround.My opponent in the hand had gotten in the habit of raising alot of marginal hands and was definatley on the "very" loose side.I had made a note of his raises with KQ, A5, A9, KJs, A4, JT, QJ, and T9s all of which he took to showdown...winning a decent share.In this particular hand...I believe that I played it under the circumstances as well as I could...what do you all think?As for what he had...I don't know....but I got a good sense after his timid call on the turn of my raise that he might have had Kings ....and thus...the value bet when I hit a pair of Aces on the river.What do you think of my play under these circumstances?------------------------------------------------------------------------------Hand #4747135-6458 at Tatooine ($10/$20 Hold'em) Powered by UltimateBet Started at 09/Mar/05 10:43:08 Oklahoma7 is at seat 0 with $172. Eddie Felson is at seat 1 with $739.50. hearimsnap is at seat 3 with $134.50. DegenrateXX3 is at seat 4 with $462. alf13 is at seat 6 with $816.50. WxGuy007 is at seat 7 with $371. chessplayer30 is at seat 8 with $859. The button is at seat 6. WxGuy007 posts the small blind of $5. chessplayer30 posts the big blind of $10. Oklahoma7: -- -- Eddie Felson: -- -- hearimsnap: -- -- DegenerateXX3: -- -- alf13: Ad Td WxGuy007: -- -- chessplayer30: -- -- Pre-flop: Oklahoma7 folds. Eddie Felson folds. hearimsnap folds. DegenrateXX3 raises to $20. alf13 re-raises to $30. WxGuy007 folds. chessplayer30 folds. DegenrateXX3 calls. Flop (board: 7d 8s Jd): DegenrateXX3 checks. alf13 bets $10. DegenrateXX3 raises to $20. alf13 calls. Turn (board: 7d 8s Jd Qs): DegenrateXX3 bets $20. alf13 raises to $40. DegenrateXX3 calls. River (board: 7d 8s Jd Qs As): DegenrateXX3 checks. alf13 bets $20. DegenrateXX3 calls. Showdown: alf13 shows Td Ad. alf13 has Td Ad Jd Qs As: a pair of aces. DegenrateXX3 mucks cards. Hand #4747135-6458 Summary: $3 is raked from a pot of $235. alf13 wins $232 with a pair of aces.

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i think the turn raise was poor but besides that, i like the way you played the hand.
That was the point at discussion.....My buddy hates the raise on the turn...I love it....

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i dont mind the turn raise...u have an unGodly amount of outs to win...if u feel he is loose enough why not bet...any 9 a k or diamond wins for yah so whats that 3 3 3 9 = 18 outs i believe...thats enough outs to to make you a favorite even if he already has a pair..id probably raise with that many outs

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alf, I have one question on teh turn raise, was it for a free showdown if you don't hit one of your multitude of draws by the river. are you checking a pair of tens?

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I agree with you about the turn raise, it's a great play IMO. You've got buckets of outs, and he checked the river, so even if you missed you bought yourself a free showdown. I really see nothing wrong with your play against a maniac opponent.

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alf, I have one question on teh turn raise, was it for a free showdown if you don't hit one of your multitude of draws by the river. are you checking a pair of tens?
I am absolutely checking a pair of Tens there...No question.....My turn raise...(in my mind) was for two things.....to chase a pair of jacks since he raised me on the flop.....since an overcard came on the turn.....and the other reason was for what you said...If I missed....I for sure was not going to bluff the river with Ace high because I was 100% sure that this guy would have called with a pair of Jacks...so I really really really did not want to have to lay down my hand to a bet on the river....a check, check river would have been fine by me.This guy was loose...but he really wasn't a bad player....

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alf, I have one question on teh turn raise, was it for a free showdown if you don't hit one of your multitude of draws by the river. are you checking a pair of tens?
I am absolutely checking a pair of Tens there...No question.....My turn raise...(in my mind) was for two things.....to chase a pair of jacks since he raised me on the flop.....since an overcard came on the turn.....and the other reason was for what you said...If I missed....I for sure was not going to bluff the river with Ace high because I was 100% sure that this guy would have called with a pair of Jacks...so I really really really did not want to have to lay down my hand to a bet on the river....a check, check river would have been fine by me.This guy was loose...but he really wasn't a bad player....
I like it a lot then, nh. I don't think your friend maybe understands certain aspects of mid/high stakes poker, cause I know that I'm raising that turn myself for a free showdown with all of the outs that I have, in fact, we might even well have the best hand on the turn

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I don't think there's any sense to the turn raise. You said yourself that he has seen all of his hands to a showdown. There is no way that your raise is going to knock him off any kind of hand.Given how aggressive he is, he is sure to bet the river even if you hit one of your many draws, and you can raise then; your mission is to put yourself in line to win three bets on the turn and river with only having to risk 2 if you're beaten. Calling the turn accomplishes that.Since he won't fold, your turn raise must be strictly for value. Will you have the best hand at showdown more than 50% of the time? It's close, but I don't think you will. All the best, Posoo

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Given how aggressive he is, he is sure to bet the river even if you hit one of your many draws, and you can raise then; your mission is to put yourself in line to win three bets on the turn and river with only having to risk 2 if you're beaten. Calling the turn accomplishes that.
While he may be agressive enough to bet into you if a draw completes (maybe) he most likely won't call a raise if you all of a sudden wake up when the draw completes and put in a raise. The turn raise must be for value since the OP is certain the villian won't lay down a hand as weak as jacks. With 13 outs to the nuts, another 4 to a hand that will most likely win the way the hand played out and possibly another 3 for the aces that leaves you with 20 outs. Being sure to get an extra bet from the villian on the river makes the raise +EV if you ask me. Assuming he doesn't 3 bet the turn, then you might be in trouble.

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That's a monster flop for your hand, but I don't think you played it optimally. If he has a hand like K-J you'd be a favorite on the flop with position. However, on the turn if it blanks off for you your opponent would now be a favorite. By re-raising the flop you could get MORE money in as the favorite, and NO money in on the turn when you are an underdog. Your raise on the turn isn't all that bad since you most likely have a ton of outs, but the way the hand was played I don't believe your opponent is going to fold here. Not to mention, that if your opponent DOES have a straight or a set he'll likely re-raise you forcing you to put in three bets on the turn as an underdog. Overall, I think the turn raise has negative EV:1. You'll rarely bluff him off his hand.2. You are an underdog.3. He'll make you pay three bets when he has a monster. The flop is where you should jam your hand. You have position so it's important to take control of the hand. That way if the turn doesn't help you, you can get an EXTREMELY valuable free card.

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That's a monster flop for your hand, but I don't think you played it optimally. If he has a hand like K-J you'd be a favorite on the flop with position. However, on the turn if it blanks off for you your opponent would now be a favorite. By re-raising the flop you could get MORE money in as the favorite, and NO money in on the turn when you are an underdog. Your raise on the turn isn't all that bad since you most likely have a ton of outs, but the way the hand was played I don't believe your opponent is going to fold here. Not to mention, that if your opponent DOES have a straight or a set he'll likely re-raise you forcing you to put in three bets on the turn as an underdog. Overall, I think the turn raise has negative EV:1. You'll rarely bluff him off his hand.2. You are an underdog.3. He'll make you pay three bets when he has a monster. The flop is where you should jam your hand. You have position so it's important to take control of the hand. That way if the turn doesn't help you, you can get an EXTREMELY valuable free card.
I know its easy to say after the fact but, i agree 100%...the flop is where you pop it up on him.....you can then take that probable free card on the turn.....yeah, what he said...LOL :wink:

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Come to think of it...Danny N is absolutely right.....I needed to jam the pot on the flop....Although I still love my raise on the turn...(considering my read of course)

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Come to think of it...Danny N is absolutely right.....I needed to jam the pot on the flop....Although I still love my raise on the turn...(considering my read of course)
yea when i read the hand history i was thinking you should have 3 bet the flop and take it from there.and i really like DNs point of taking control of the hand when you have position.

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That's a monster flop for your hand, but I don't think you played it optimally. If he has a hand like K-J you'd be a favorite on the flop with position. However, on the turn if it blanks off for you your opponent would now be a favorite. By re-raising the flop you could get MORE money in as the favorite, and NO money in on the turn when you are an underdog. Your raise on the turn isn't all that bad since you most likely have a ton of outs, but the way the hand was played I don't believe your opponent is going to fold here. Not to mention, that if your opponent DOES have a straight or a set he'll likely re-raise you forcing you to put in three bets on the turn as an underdog. Overall, I think the turn raise has negative EV:1. You'll rarely bluff him off his hand.2. You are an underdog.3. He'll make you pay three bets when he has a monster. The flop is where you should jam your hand. You have position so it's important to take control of the hand. That way if the turn doesn't help you, you can get an EXTREMELY valuable free card.
Couldn’t agree anymore, I read the post from the top and was surprised no one mentioned 3 betting the flop. Excellent post Daniel, thanks for helping all of us amateurs out. :roll: :roll:

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I definately agree about 3 betting the flop, and actually i can see the turn bet working in a lot of cases too. When i first read the hand, i kind of liked the turn raise, but then i thought of just too many reasons against it. Sure you can get a free card and possibly scare a complete bluff out some of the time, but i would rather let the river come and go from there. Unless the guy certainly has an underflush draw the raise isn't good. Anything else and you are risking too much with an unmade hand. I wish you could have seen what the guy had, it would have told you how good that raise really was. That's my biggest problem with online poker, you pay to see hands, and then they get automucked. You lose out on a lot of information. I guess it can also encourage more longshots and bad play, but there are some times that i really want to see.

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There's really no point in responding since Daniel seems to have it on lock down, but I immediately wondered why you hadn't three-bet the flop in position here, then checked the turn if you missed.Just mark another tally for the "flop jam" side.

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I think I am going to make a habit of posting after daniel in each thread and then agree with him as though I thought the same thing all long. (sw) :club:

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I also would of 3-bet the flop and checked the turn. You have +EV to 3-bet the flop, but -EV to bet the turn.

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I think I am going to make a habit of posting after daniel in each thread and then agree with him as though I thought the same thing all long. (sw) :club:
Well you wouldn't be the only one. After he posts the common reply seems to go along with "Yea I agree 100% with Daniel...I would do this and this because this and this but really I'm only regurgitating what he said in his post and I'm agreeing with him because he is the pro" If you check every single one of his posts, theres always at least two posters who agree right afterwards. One of these times DN should post the wrong advice purposely, just to see how many mindless people agree.

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Come to think of it...Danny N is absolutely right.....I needed to jam the pot on the flop....
Yeah Daniel talked to Chris (WRTO) and I about this hand at his house and you're right by saying he is right 100%.... Popping this flop is the best move you can make you are putting money IN when you are probobly a favorite and by doing that you are most likely Not putting money in when you are not a favorite on the turn (unless you hit ofcourse).

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Come to think of it...Danny N is absolutely right.....I needed to jam the pot on the flop....
Yeah Daniel talked to Chris (WRTO) and I about this hand at his house and you're right by saying he is right 100%.... Popping this flop is the best move you can make you are putting money IN when you are probobly a favorite and by doing that you are most likely Not putting money in when you are not a favorite on the turn (unless you hit ofcourse).
Damn :cry: I wish DN would ask me for MY opinion! :lol:Anyways, yes he is right. You have an absolute MONSTER on that flop. Why WOULDN'T you want to get as much money in there as possible at that point?

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