another 1/2 lhe hand

[princeof56k 0]

I would not call here because as others have mentioned the raise came from UTG in a 9 handed game. It just doesnt seem worth it to try and win a small pot. In this situation, I would like a hand that strong enough to check/raise on the flop. I dont think A4 is strong enough to do that because when the Ace hits and UTG bets I could easily be outkicked. This would lead to a 3-bet or a call down and either case I lose a lot of chips to win a small amount. If he doesnt have an Ace, hes going to fold if we check/raise anyways winning us a small amount.And I dont think A4 suited is much more significant than A4 offsuit. I dont think the pot or implied odds are great for the flush.BTW, if the raise came from a late position and its heads up, then thats totally different.

[dimseven 0]

against AK we are winning 30% of the time. Considering he doesnt have AK every time and we have suited cards that can beat big hands this is a terribly easy call.

I think this is a leak.This isn't a heads up game or even short handed.

what's your point?Ok I didn't write this. So You're posting under me now JW? That's uncalled for. Serious. I don't want to have to go back and check all the posts I've written to see if You edited them or posted under Dimseven.Also' date=' if You're going to pretend to be me' date=' at least write like me. I capitalize the Y in You , You're, Your.EDIT: I'm an ass[b''][/b]hole who assumed Jweb edited a post of mine on purpose when I should have asked him about it first.

[holman3rd 0]

Alrighty, let me quote SSHE, page 70 (Suited Aces A9s-A2s):"Usually fold all these hands, however, if it is raised in front of you. Cold-calling raises with these hands in short-handed pots is a common and costly mistake."

[akishore 0]

Alrighty, let me quote SSHE, page 70 (Suited Aces A9s-A2s):"Usually fold all these hands, however, if it is raised in front of you. Cold-calling raises with these hands in short-handed pots is a common and costly mistake."

eh, doesn't apply. we're not cold-calling here.i don't have SSHE on me, so see if you can find the example they use where they say you should fold A-10 offsuit in the big blind when someone raises and it folds to you.thanks,aseem

[dimseven 0]

What are You going to do next JW, delete this thread because You're being out-argued???EDIT: I'm an asshole who assumed Jweb edited a post of mine on purpose when I should have asked him about it first.MORE: I'm a bigger asshole for writing this post. Custom is right.

[wrto4556 0]

What are You going to do next JW, delete this thread because You're being out-argued???

you're making a huge ass of yourself. He ment to quote but hit edit.and you suck, btw.

[JaysonWeber 0]

Ok I didn't write this. So You're posting under me now JW? That's uncalled for. Serious. I don't want to have to go back and check all the posts I've written to see if You edited them or posted under Dimseven.Also, if You're going to pretend to be me, at least write like me. I capitalize the Y in You , You're, Your.

Woops! I hit Edit instead of Quote man I'm sorry!**Disclaimer** DimSeven Didn't write the above post I edited it instead of Quoting, Stupid Moderator Functions.... Blame Canada

[JaysonWeber 0]

What are You going to do next JW, delete this thread because You're being out-argued???

You have no idea young one...My answer is coming here don't worry.

[wrto4556 0]

if he thinks folding is -0.5 BB, then he has to subtract 0.5 BB from each number in his simulations.

wrong.

can you explain??aseem

he put money in the pot. Why would he subtract .5BB?if you fold, that money goes bye bye.if you call, it goes in the pot and you two fight for it.you are way out of your element here.

[dimseven 0]

Ok I didn't write this. So You're posting under me now JW? That's uncalled for. Serious. I don't want to have to go back and check all the posts I've written to see if You edited them or posted under Dimseven.Also, if You're going to pretend to be me, at least write like me. I capitalize the Y in You , You're, Your.

Woops! I hit Edit instead of Quote man I'm sorry!**Disclaimer** DimSeven Didn't write the above post I edited it instead of Quoting, Stupid Moderator Functions.... Blame Canada

Ok, I apologize for blaming You. I don't know You at all, and I just assumed You did it. Again I apologize. Thanks for clearing it up.And wrto, go lose the rest of Your bankroll at 10-20 sucker.

[custom36 4]

And wrto, go lose the rest of Your bankroll at 10-20 sucker.

You, sir, are an asshole.

[harvey 0]

no, he's not wrong. you lose .5BB in the BB. If you call and only lose .4 BB its better than folding. Do you see why?You do play poker, right?

When you model poker hands mathematically, its sometimes helps to equate folding with a zero cost (current pot belongs to no-one) which can simplify the equations, without losing the intent of analysing the hand.. This is probably what akishore is talking about.In actuality, there is a cost to folding but it isn't .5 BB, you should spread the cost of the blinds out of each of the 10 hands, so -.075 Big bets for each hand folded in a 10 handed game. This more accurately describes the effect of the blinds on the game....In any event, equating the fold with -.5 BB is usually not the way to go..the intent of the blinds is lost when you do calculations this way.

[JaysonWeber 0]

Here we go Aseem you gave me these rangesAseem: 30%-50% or ~1-3.33 too 1-2I decided to go w/ 1-4 here I thought that it was realisiticSo we have 1-4 chances here in our heads. Now lets look at the math side of it..Given the range of hands Aseem Produced (And I would argue that there is a lesser chance of him having a Lot of the A-x hands due to the fact we do, this is a minimal difference but the fact remains less Aces are in the deck, the odds of someone else holding an ace while you do is 1-4 and the fact that he is raising from UTG almost null this).So, I used the range and put this onto PokerStove.924,644,160 games 1.391 secs 664,733,400 games/secBoard: Dead: equity (%) win (%) / tie (%) Hand 1: 58.4763 % [ 00.57 00.01 ] { AA-88, AKs-ATs, KQs-KTs, AKo-ATo, KQo-KTo }Hand 2: 41.5237 % [ 00.40 00.01 ] { A4s }-----------------------------------------------So over the course of nearly 1 million hands we have a 41.5% chance of winning here. Now we're priced into this, do you see why? We are getting 1 - 3.5 on our call here and we need to win this hand roughly 1-2.5 to make it profitable!Now all that aside, let's put this guy on an EXACT hand. Let's say he turns his hat around, puts up his hood, and crawls under the table whenever he has K-K. So he does this after betting... We know he has K-KThis is more PokerStove.41,095,296 games 0.062 secs 662,827,354 games/secBoard: Dead: equity (%) win (%) / tie (%) Hand 1: 67.0251 % [ 00.67 00.00 ] { KK }Hand 2: 32.9749 % [ 00.33 00.00 ] { A4s }So here, We are winning this hand 1-3.33 and What's the price for us to call this? 1-3.5 Now we're probobly not calling this one as quickly, and to be frank we're not going to want too because these are odds as if we're both all-in pre-flop and our odds if we miss the ace on the flop aren't exactly as good, so we're not going to want to call a turn bet to try to see an ace on the river... But we DO want too call a bet right off the bat because we have slight, but we do have other draws.The Straight draw and the Flush draw are minimal but I would certainly argue that calling here might still be profitable especially against a 2/4 player who you can really take it to.Now, Do you understand Why WRTO and I are calling here?

[dimseven 0]

And wrto, go lose the rest of Your bankroll at 10-20 sucker.

You, sir, are an asshole.

Ok. Is this because of the other thread where You told me to "TRY AGAIN" and I told You said opponent had K-K?Stop being so confrontational.

[akishore 0]

jayson, that's a great post, but i think some things are flawed.you use equity (% your hand will be good by _showdown_) when you're raising and getting more money in.you use pot odds (% your hand will be good on the next _street_) when you're just calling a bet.will our hand be the best hand on the flop at least 1 / 4.5 times, given that range of hands?i'm not sure if pokerstove can calculate that.further, this whole thing completely ignores reverse implied odds and postflop action. like you said, you're not just going to showdown magically after calling the bet.you're only flopping an ace 1/6 of the time assuming all three aces are clean. if one is in your opponent's hand, the number goes down to 1/9 of the time (same as flopping a set).when that happens, how much action do you get? will you mistakenly fold the best hand sometimes? will you get much action from a worse hand? will you lose more than your share to a better hand?you see what i'm saying?like i said, pot odds is important, and sure, our hand is 40% on average against that range of (somewhat loose) hands UTG could have, but it's not everything.when i say A-4 suited doesn't compare favorably to our opponent's hand, i'm not saying just equity-wise. i'm also saying playability-wise postflop, and talking about implied odds and reverse implied odds and all that jazz.again, good post, but i think it's inaccurate and isn't reason enough to call.aseem

[JaysonWeber 0]

Well I waited for a little while to reply, kinda sad only Aseem Replied. But thanks for the reply.These are my thoughts..

when i say A-4 suited doesn't compare favorably to our opponent's hand, i'm not saying just equity-wise. i'm also saying playability-wise postflop, and talking about implied odds and reverse implied odds and all that jazz.again, good post, but i think it's inaccurate and isn't reason enough to call.aseem

Now I think for your average poker player, you're right the reverse implied odds are there, but only if you let them. I think of myself as a decent poker player and I'm not trying to sound egotistical at all here but I honestly believe, and When I ran it through PokerStove it gave me more reason to believe, that I can play this hand profitably in this position and that's what I would do here everytime.

[akishore 0]

Now I think for your average poker player, you're right the reverse implied odds are there, but only if you let them. I think of myself as a decent poker player and I'm not trying to sound egotistical at all here but I honestly believe, and When I ran it through PokerStove it gave me more reason to believe, that I can play this hand profitably in this position and that's what I would do here everytime.

i guess then the decision is close, and it really boils down to:is your postflop edge enough to overcome your preflop disadvantage?i don't believe it usually is, but if you think so, more power to you.either way, this decision is close, and to say that it's an easy call isn't right.aseem

[TheIceman05 0]

i guess then the decision is close, and it really boils down to:is your postflop edge enough to overcome your preflop disadvantage?i don't believe it usually is, but if you think so, more power to you.either way, this decision is close, and to say that it's an easy call isn't right.aseem

I posted on page 2, and I remember saying something like this.IF you have a great edge postflop and IF you play the hand well and IF you're willing to take a marginal marginal marginal positive edge.... sure. But most players do NOT have that great an edge postflop, ESPECIALLY THE OP! The whole point of this thread is to decide what most players should do. The suggestion that this is a "no brainer" is absolutely ludicrous. I wouldn't counsel a player to play this hand if he's not significantly above average. The pot's small, so I say "bleep it." And Jayson, your suggestion that 'reverse implied odds aren't there unless you let them be' is asinine and ridiculous. Of course they are there! This is, at best, a marginally profitable situation for the very good players in the best situations. Most of the time, you're going to find yourself needlessly spending bets when you'd be better served mucking and posting your small blind, one hand closer to the button.Ice

[JaysonWeber 0]

IF you have a great edge postflop and IF you play the hand well and IF you're willing to take a marginal marginal marginal positive edge.... sure. These Marginal Situations add up, I've really opened my game up and actually have geared it down slightly in some spots the last 2 weeks, but opened it even more in other spots because of this. You want these situations! I want this situation atleast...And Jayson, your suggestion that 'reverse implied odds aren't there unless you let them be' is asinine and ridiculous. Of course they are there!I guess what I'm saying here is I'm able to get away from a lot of these situations and you are as well (atleast I think so) the Reverse implied odds are Greater for the other player in my mind.Take the KK for example, when I gave that hand, The reason I call this bet and see the flop even though I KNOW that i'm not getting sufficient immediate odds are because my Implied Odds against a Made Hand in this spot are large, and im Folding on the flop if I don't catch a piece.Do you see what I'm getting at w/ this? I don't know if I'm explaining myself well enough :(EDIT: Most of the time, you're going to find yourself needlessly spending bets when you'd be better served mucking and posting your small blind, one hand closer to the button.I thought that the PokerStove took care of this needlessly spending bets talk?

[MrNiceGuy 0]

(EDIT: I think my result here is an overestimate - see my post later on. But, I still think calling PF is the best play against most opponents.)Actually, having thought about this in more detail, I've changed my mind. I think Jayson and wrto are right, this should be a call (if my analysis below is close to correct, that is - I'm not totally sure that it is). But, here goes:I thought about what flops are good for us and what flops aren't. I may do this in more detail, but for now I just did some estimates.Approximately, you'll flop:2 pair or better: 5% of the time1 pair: 30% of the timeFlush draw: 10% of the timeNone of the above: 55% of the timeSo, 55% of the time you check-fold the flop and lose 1 BB. -> -1*55= -55 BBsWhen you flop 2-pair of better(5%), I'm assuming you can win an average of net 4BB on the hand -> 4*5=20 BBsI'll assume you lose 0.5 BB on average when you flop a flush draw. -> -0.5*10=-5 BBThe 30% of the time you flop one pair, if raiser has AK-AT, AA-88, or KQ, you'll be ahead after the flop almost 2/3 of the time. Without a lot of analysis, I'll estimate that you win 0.5 BB on average here. -> 0.5*30= 15 BBIf my estimates are reasonable, then your net expectation of calling over 100 hands should be somewhere around -55+20-5+15 = -25 BBWhile your expectation of just folding 100 hands is -0.5 *100 = -50 BBMy estimates could be a bit high, but this quick analysis suggests that defending is considerably better than folding.Of course, I'm not sure if this is right - I think it should be fairly close, but let me know if you see anything you think is a major error.

[JaysonWeber 0]

Well thanks for that analysis, and again, I am only arguing this because I don't like mis-information going out to the people that read here.It's good that you spent the time doing that, thanks. The numbers look accurate.The numbers can never be "accurate" because it will be player specific and hand specific this hand would have to be played over for a long time to get a real estimate.But your numbers purpose is clear in there point, it's more profitable too call.I hope people see now that you do lose the .5 BB's everytime you fold this, and it does add up... I think I remember (im not gonna go back and look got a good 3 handed 5/10 going) a few people saying you can't look at it that way, when infact you should.

[MrNiceGuy 0]

I hope people see now that you do lose the .5 BB's everytime you fold this, and it does add up... I think I remember (im not gonna go back and look got a good 3 handed 5/10 going) a few people saying you can't look at it that way, when infact you should.

I think you can look at it either way.If you figure that you lose your blind by folding, then you have to exclude it from your profit when you win the hand (in other words, you can only count as profit the money that your opponents put in the pot).If you figure that folding is zero EV, then you have to include the initial blind you posted as part of your profit when you win the pot, while any additional money you invest in the hand still does not count as profit.--------Regarding my analysis, I think my numbers for the profit you win are probably somewhat higher than they should be. But I don't think they're off by a ton. In fact, I'm starting to wonder if maybe even A4o should be a defend here.

[JaysonWeber 0]

If you figure that you lose your blind by folding, then you have to exclude it from your profit when you win the hand (in other words, you can only count as profit the money that your opponents put in the pot).If you figure that folding is zero EV, then you have to include the initial blind you posted as part of your profit when you win the pot, while any additional money you invest in the hand still does not count as profit.

You shouldn't look at this folding as Zero EV though. Because it infact isn't 0 EV. I think you understand why, But I think a lot of people here might not. The reason this is not a Zero EV decision is exactly the reason we are calling, as MrNiceGuy showed you infact lose more by folding, this is why people defend blinds and it is such a cause of controversy and discussion on poker forums. How you play this does effect your bottom line, even over the 100 hands shown theres a difference between folding and calling it's because of situations like this one that you CANT absolutely CANT think of folding your blinds as zero EVGo sit at a table... Fold Every hand for 2 hours, did you lose money? Blinds are -EV it's a constant struggle to make up for them.

[harvey 0]

I hope people see now that you do lose the .5 BB's everytime you fold this

How does the post show that? He just said he assumes....When money goes into a pot, you can't just claim ownership of it based on your contribution to determine how much you lose by folding. That money is gone. If things worked that way, then everytime you figured out your pot equity you would just add up how much money you've contributed to the pot with no consideration for how likely you are to win the hand and how much money is in the pot. Its extremely complicated to determine pot equity preflop, with so many (some undetermined) factors including the actual board cards, and how playable the hand will be (aggressiveness of opponent, position, etc) . Its like those crazy economists (sorry econ_tim) trying to factor in opportunity cost with very little idea of what the opporunity is. You have 4 choices: 1. You can say that the pot belongs to no one, and choose to make the cost of folding zero. OR--2. You can say that the cost of folding is the amortization of the Blinds across each hand, (.075 BB) for a 10 handed game. That way, each hand has a folding cost associated with it which describes the dynamic of the game. 3. You can come up with some crazy econ forumla with 1000 variables factoring in all the different things that might happen when the cards hit. 4. If you had a database which contained normalized expected values for this hand in this position against a raise, against the average opponent for this type of game, with many many hand histories, you might use that number. What you can't say: is I contributed .5 BB to the pot so thats how much I lose. Think about how that would work after the flop. You flop a royal flush, from the Big blind, so the cost of folding is just your Big blind post?? Or, the only hands that are expensive to fold are in the BB and SB? Everything else is a free fold?

[JaysonWeber 0]

If you had a database which contained normalized expected values for this hand in this position against a raise, against the average opponent for this type of game, with many many hand histories, you might use that number.

Well this doesnt deal w/ only A6 but I think it serves its purpose. This good enough?My Implied Odds by Peter Russ

2. You can say that the cost of folding is the amortization of the Blinds across each hand, (.075 BB) for a 10 handed game. That way, each hand has a folding cost associated with it which describes the dynamic of the game.

Can I also say that 1 in 10 times I am playing I put in .25 BB's and 1 in 10 times I put in .5 BB's?Using your method is basically saying there are ante's in the game, Just go to that link you'll see what I mean by this. There is a difference between having this hand on the button and having it in the blinds.