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another 1/2 lhe hand


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Here's another one for you guys:1o players PRE-FLOP Hero dealt A :club: 4 :D UTG bets $2, folded around to BB (me), Hero calls $1.Loose call again? I figured HU, my (suited) Ace is worth a look at the flop.FLOP board cards 8 :D ,6 :) ,K :) Hero bets $1, UTG calls $1.I figured I'd bet at the King and see if he's afraid of it. (Which he looks to be)TURN board cards 8H :D ,6D :) ,KC :) ,5C :)Hero bets $2, UTG calls $2.Picked up the flush draw + my 3 Ace outs, so I thought I might as well keep repping the KingRIVER board cards 8 :) ,6 :) ,K :) ,5 :) ,Q :) Hero checks, UTG checks.Ah, the jig is up. After I checked, he thought for a while. I was so tempted to type in the chat 'Your Jacks are good'. But, I'm glad I didn't.Thanks

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(shrug) I like playing out of the blinds, but not like this. You're getting 3-1, and I'd venture that against a pretty average-loose range of hands that the raiser could be popping it preflop with, we're about a 65-35 dog. Out of position, this is probably a little worse than a break-even call, because he's going to win the pot with a worse hand an appreciable amount of the time. I think I see this flop if he's bad, and fold if he's any good after the flop. Betting the flop is pretty silly. This is one of those "why not?" plays you need to eliminate. "I figured I'd..." is usually antecedent to a losing play. Once he calls on the flop, he's not folding the turn. So betting again is weak. You hit a good card. Check/call (getting 4-1, have an average of more than 11 outs, I'd hazard) the turn.No need to piss off a lot of chips in an ity bitty pot. Bets are valuable. Save your play for pots with lots of them.Ice

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i dislike the preflop call unless at least one other person is in. out of position, dominated, no implied odds, etc.i dislike the flop bet. you're not making him fold, you're not getting information whatever he does (a call could be slowplaying, or it could be ace-high... a raise could be top pair, or it could be ace-high), and you're not betting for value (you're almost never good here unless he raises Q-J under the gun).the turn bet is okay if you bet the flop. if you didn't bet the flop, the turn bet here would still be okay. the key thing is whether you think you have a reasonable shot at the pot. if you can take down this pot with a turn bet 1 in 4 times, it's a good semi-bluff. and even the times you get called, you'll still win the pot by improving on the river. so, the turn bet is the best part about this hand, the way it played out.the river... well... that's easy.aseem

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Loose call again? I figured HU, my (suited) Ace is worth a look at the flop.You kidding me? This is an automatic call man, What odds are you getting on it? Come on...Picked up the flush draw + my 3 Ace outs, so I thought I might as well keep repping the King How many outs are you counting for the ace? 3? Why? Thirdly... Isn't this just a basic 2 fire hand? Why didn't you fire the third shell if you fired the turn?

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Loose call again? I figured HU, my (suited) Ace is worth a look at the flop.You kidding me?  This is an automatic call man, What odds are you getting on it?  Come on...
Dude... he's getting 3-1 OOP in a 3 sb pot. In my opinion, this is not a situation you want to be in. We are, at best, 60-40 to win here, and our position is absolutely horrible, so we're going to lose more bets than we win after the flop, all other things being equal. Ice
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jayson, this is bad advice, IMHO.

Loose call again? I figured HU, my (suited) Ace is worth a look at the flop.You kidding me?  This is an automatic call man, What odds are you getting on it?  Come on...
1. out of position.2. way easily dominated.3. way easily an underdog against any pair.4. at BEST, we're barely 60% to win it.are you really calling for that rare #4 case?this isn't even a blind steal raise. this is an EP raise.this is SUCH an easy fold from the big blind unless a second player has entered the pot.
Picked up the flush draw + my 3 Ace outs, so I thought I might as well keep repping the King How many outs are you counting for the ace?  3?  Why?  Thirdly... Isn't this just a basic 2 fire hand?  Why didn't you fire the third shell if you fired the turn?
third shell??what in the world calls one bet on the river that we can beat??? what in the world folds for one bet that we _can't_ beat???this, according to chris ferguson (and i agree), is the worst play in poker, and is a HUGE leak. fortunately, it's easily fixable.if you're going to show this down, you ABSOLUTELY must check/call it. i would just check/fold it, though... our bluff attempt failed, and we're beat 99% of the time.jayson, i'm disappointed.aseem
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I am thinking shorthanded 5/10 right now... I apologize you're probobly right.
it's okay, i know you and chris are always in that loose/aggressive shorthanded mode. you maniacs! :club: aseem
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Wait Wait.. I just looked at this again (I ussually dont read posts very thouroughly)Aseem... Iceman.. You two are Seriously folding this With A-4 Suited on 1-3 odds? Guys Tell me your names on some pokersites please... Honestly Don't fold this.

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Thanks for the replies.

i dislike the flop bet. you're not making him fold, you're not getting information whatever he does (a call could be slowplaying, or it could be ace-high... a raise could be top pair, or it could be ace-high), and you're not betting for value (you're almost never good here unless he raises Q-J under the gun).
The flop bet was an out and out bluff. I thought there was a chance he would fold a medium pocket pair. Catching the flush draw on the turn made it go from a bluff to a value bet I guessJayson, I'm counting all 3 Aces because I don't think he has one, so a pair of Aces wins it for me.
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Jayson, I'm counting all 3 Aces because I don't think he has one, so a pair of Aces wins it for me.
But what if someone folded one? In this situation I'd count it as two, I ussually (In a Small Stakes Ring Game.. Count 1.5)
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What's UTG like?In most cases, fold preflop.Pot's small, You could be dominated, and the clubs are more of worth if the pot was bigger. Reverse implied odds.Fold.Unless You think UTG can be raising with crap.

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Jayson, I'm counting all 3 Aces because I don't think he has one, so a pair of Aces wins it for me.
But what if someone folded one? In this situation I'd count it as two, I ussually (In a Small Stakes Ring Game.. Count 1.5)
come on donkey :club: , that's not the reason you count only two outs for aces. if that was true, then you have to assume you can "see" one more card, so instead of 47 unseen cards on the flop, you'd have 46.to the OP:the reason you shouldn't give yourself a full three outs for aces is because:1. you can hit your ace and still lose.2. you could be reverse dominated.3. you can't be 100% sure opponent doesn't have an ace. how did you even come to that conclusion anyway?if you haven't read SSHE, do so. it explains partial outs pretty nicely. unless your outs are to the nuts and you can't lose when you hit them, you should almost never give yourself a full number of outs.aseem
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are you guys serious about defending preflop?wouldn't you be folding A-10 offsuit here?(you should be, there's a clear example in SSHE of this.)if so, why in the world would you call with A-4 suited? the suited only makes a difference in a multiway pot, it doesn't do much heads-up.aseem

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I agree with Ice and akishore, I can't possibly see how defending A4s HU vs. a normal UTG raiser 10-handed could be profitable.Maybe this is too tight, but I generally fold this PF even with one cold-caller in there. Except for KQ and possibly KJ, every legitimate raising hand dominates A4, and I don't like to be OOP when the only things going for me are the flush potential (without enough opponents to pay it off), a tiny bit of straight potential, and 3 pair outs where I don't know whether it's the A or the 4 that's clean.

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Aseem... Iceman.. You two are Seriously folding this With A-4 Suited on 1-3 odds?
by the way, this is becoming a pet peeve of mine.pot odds are NOT the most important thing when it comes to preflop decisions. implied odds are.stop thinking 3-to-1 is good enough to defend, while 2-to-1 isn't, etc. that's just so wrong.compare:1. two players limp, you have A-4 suited on the button. with the big blind in, you're getting 3.5-to-1 on your money.2. UTG raises, two people cold-call, you have A-4 suited on the button. again, you're getting 3.5-to-1 on your money.3. UTG raises, it folds to you in the big blind with A-4 suited (this scenario). you're again getting 3.5-to-1 on your money.obviously all three of these are far different scenarios, and despite having the same pot odds, each situation is way different.the most implied odds are in #1, the least are in #3. this is situation #3.we DON'T have the implied odds to play A-4 suited here profitably. add in the other HUGE factors of possibly being dominated, almost always being an underdog and being out of position in a small pot, and defending here is just sooooooo unattractive.why is this being debated? would you guys defend with A-10 offsuit here? isn't that the classic example in every book of what _not_ to defend with if an EP/MP player raises and it folds to you in the big blind? if you're folding A-10 offsuit here, why in the world would you defend with A-4 suited?aseem
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But what if someone folded one?
I didn't think this mattered for counting outs. People could have also folded a club, but we don't discount our flush outs because of that, do we?
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Interestig conclusion from these numbers - you must defend against steal raises HU your BB with any trash suited, and with any trash offsuited and not connected if you think that you have at least 1 card higher than raiser for a rough estimate - 35-45% of time. Against aggressive stealer you must defend with any two and it will be better than folding and loosing -0.5BB instantly.
this is wrong.folding doesn't lose you -0.5 BB instantly, it loses you 0 BB.if you want to include the big blind as money you voluntarily put in, then subtract 0.5 BB from every number in his simulations. that makes defending with 27s against AK -0.87 BB, which is lower than folding for "-0.5 BB" according to him.folding always has 0 EV. defending with 27s against AK here has -0.37 BB EV. clearly, folding is better.aseem
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Im really not going to argue this any further... I would love if the people I play against thought like that (Folding the A-4) I would be making a lot more money if they decided to do this.
not to sound harsh, but i feel like you're weaseling out and not supplying any actual argument nor addressing my points.aseem
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