excellent read / horrible play?

[holman3rd 0]

So, uh, I'm the friend in question. Let me clarify something here :)I play with JasonMason more than I play with anyone else, basically. The first time I ever posted here was because of a hand we were fighting over.Anyway, I made a pretty standard raise, he came over the top. We had *just* raised the blinds to the next level, and I figured it to be a standard blind defense. Fine, my hand is pretty good 3 handed, let's see a flop.I've got KJ offsuit, I have no idea what he's got, but I think it's in the same range as mine. The flop came all rags and rainbow, and I figured he missed as badly as I did. At this point, it was down to who had the bigger nothing.He fired out first with 70 chips, and I went into the tank thinking about whether or not to call. Besides the heavy bet screaming "please fold," I noticed he stiffened up when I reached for my chips. I hadn't called yet, but shuffled once and looked at him. That's when I threw my chips in to call.The turn brought another rag that didn't fill a straight, a flush, nothing. He immediately moved all in, and I thought for like 2 minutes. He dropped one of his chips on the floor, sat up, and I was asking him some questions.jasonmason was holding his breath :(He didn't speak, just nodded to the yes or no question ... didn't breathe, vein visible in his neck. I called. Hey, if I was wrong I was wrong, but I always go with my instinct. I honestly, HONESTLY thought my KJ was still good. And it was.It wasn't incredibly difficult to pick up information here. Further, Jasonmason needs to remember that I pointed out a huge tell of his before. It wasn't me being stubborn; KJ isn't exactly a hand that you get stuck on. You have no idea how hard it was for me to call for all my chips with that censored hand, but I only did it because my read was really that dead on. The only way I can see I misplayed the hand is by not making a move on the flop.

I just read this response AFTER posting my thoughts. You obviously know Jason's game very well. Based on that, it IS reasonable to assume that you may think that KJ is good. However, for everyone else here who doesn't know anything about either of your games, I really find it hard to believe that anyone can honestly say this was a good call (Again--please try to ignore the fact that you know what cardcore was thinking).I really wish Jason hadn't posted the results in his OP. I really don't think ANYONE here would put villian on KJ based on that line of play.

[Acesgotcracked 0]

I posted a hand where I called 150 dollars(cash game)on the river K-5 on a board of 2-3-6-5-2 with three to the flush because I put my opponent on the naked ace of clubs and thought I had the best hand. Almost everyone said I was a fish, not that I care but its just funny how people eact so differently in this case.

[holman3rd 0]

This is poker jason. Good call/bad call? It's simple. If it's a good call, he won. If it's a bad call, he lost. Next hand. :wink:

Exactly the reason why most here are saying this was a good call...b/c they knew the results. That has to be one of the worst comments yet. Example: You flop a set and villian goes all-in. You put him on a flush draw, so you call (correctly, as you are almost 3 to 1 favorite).Villian sucks out and hits his flush. Bad call? Hardly.

[holman3rd 0]

I posted a hand where I called 150 dollars(cash game)on the river K-5 on a board of 2-3-6-5-2 with three to the flush because I put my opponent on the naked ace of clubs and thought I had the best hand. Almost everyone said I was a fish, not that I care but its just funny how people eact so differently in this case.

That's not even remotely near the same situation as this hand.

[jasonmason 0]

woohoo ppl agree with me. awesome

[cardcore 0]

all i'm saying is that there are a lot of hands out there that beat his friend's K-J, and anyone who makes calls like that with K high will lose in the long run.

Except that I don't call 9 times out of 10. Did you even read anything that I wrote?If the situation was the same and we replayed the hand, I'd still make the same play. My hand was ahead and I knew it, so I called.It was the winning hand. This has turned into a "my ---- is bigger than your ----" war, but I'd like to point out one more time that jasonmason's game is a bit predictable.Further, it isn't a bad call solely because YOU wouldn't risk any chips on it.I had a perfect read and I went with it. Hell, I played again in a tournament tonight and called another player down with Q high on a board of AAK85. He had a worse Q high. If you know your player, you know the plays you should be making.

[DrLongstack 0]

You are dumb to get all your money in with K high on the turn, and he's stupid for calling off all his money with K high on the turn.It's impossible to tell the diffference between a pair of 2s and a king high in that situation. The only thing either one of you beat is a bluff. Any so-called "good read" is just a rationalization for gambling at the river. It was bad play all the way around.If you think the guy was bluffing with high cards, you are beat. If you think the guy was calling with low cards, that flop could easily have hit. If he isn't bluffing, which will be most of the time when people are betting, then you are beat.With all that said, the call with K high on the turn is the worst play in that hand. At least the aggressor gets credit for making a play. There is never justification for calling a bet that big on the turn with a crappy hand. Just give the guy credit for bluffing you and move on to the next hand. If he'll make that crazy move one time, he'll likely do it again when you have something. Even the fishiest fish will have a pair, or at least A high, more often than not when they throw their money in on the turn.Finally, don't bluff when you have nothing and the board doesn't even represent a possible hand, you'll get called by weak hands.

[bsabres81 0]

I have only scanned the replies to this, but it seems odd that noone has mentioned the obvious. KJ should have moved in on the flop, if he was sure his opponent was weak, to force A-high or a small pair to fold.

[SuperJon 175]

all i'm saying is that there are a lot of hands out there that beat his friend's K-J, and anyone who makes calls like that with K high will lose in the long run.

Except that I don't call 9 times out of 10. Did you even read anything that I wrote?If the situation was the same and we replayed the hand, I'd still make the same play. My hand was ahead and I knew it, so I called.It was the winning hand. This has turned into a "my ---- is bigger than your ----" war, but I'd like to point out one more time that jasonmason's game is a bit predictable.Further, it isn't a bad call solely because YOU wouldn't risk any chips on it.I had a perfect read and I went with it. Hell, I played again in a tournament tonight and called another player down with Q high on a board of AAK85. He had a worse Q high. If you know your player, you know the plays you should be making.

remember, they're only bluffing 15% of the time. The fact that you called the bet on the turn is the most surprising, on the river, I might be able to understand, but never the turn. If you would've said something like, "I know you're holding a King with a lower kicker than me so I call", then it's even more understandable, but you didn't. You put a huge portion of your stack in on a feeling that K high was good, and there's still one more card to come out. Any ace beats you, any pocket pair beats you, anything on the board beats you, and if anything fell on the river to help jason, you're beat. You just strike me as the type of person who'll make these calls just try to and look accomplished at the poker table. UltimateBet, SuperJon9000... we should play sometime.

[AceyDeucy 0]

The only problem I really have here is that Jasonmason seems completely incapable of admitting culpability here. Look, you got read and you got beat. It was a narrow thing, and the hands wound up being a lot closer than the caller thought, but he read you as weak, you were, and he beat you. If you had been 2-2 kind of weak and not K-10 kind of weak, you would still be gloating (this is where you start going, "See, that makes it a bad call." Don't). Sometimes your bluffs get called. Just give the guy credit for beating you and go on. Don't forget, you were the one with you hand in the cookie jar here. Don't rage at him for catching you in the act, you were the one playing "out of line." Jasonmason, you made a bluff that was too transparent. If he had the range of hands you were putting him on, he was likely to have you beat. If you are too obviously making your bluff, and you were, you are putting good money after bad. He did make a tough call that was right on the edge of crazy, but just because you liked your read doesn't mean that he can't like his. Just smile, credit him with the good play, and thank him for posting all the tells he got on you.If that doesn't work for you try this on for size:If it was a good call, you just look like a idiot, and a mean one at that for criticizing him.If it was a bad call, you just look like a idiot for educating a guy who is trying to pay you off.Lose-lose proposition there, eh?edit: fixed a typo

[AceyDeucy 0]

remember, they're only bluffing 15% of the time.

Where is that written? And what does that have to do with anything?Okay, to be less Smash-like I will actually explain my point: MOST players only bluff around 10-15% of the time that they play hands. So that means that if you are completely insensate, and have no read whatsoever, that there is a 10-15% chacne of a bluff.But this does not apply to all players.And this ignores your ability to read players.But if you just sit there and say to yourself "There is only a 15% chance he's bluffing" and talk yourself out of calling down bluffs, well, you're not very good. At some point, you have to be able to trust your instincts.

[koolromeo 0]

it was a bad call.

[DrLongstack 0]

remember, they're only bluffing 15% of the time.

Where is that written? And what does that have to do with anything?Okay, to be less Smash-like I will actually explain my point: MOST players only bluff around 10-15% of the time that they play hands. So that means that if you are completely insensate, and have no read whatsoever, that there is a 10-15% chacne of a bluff.But this does not apply to all players.And this ignores your ability to read players.But if you just sit there and say to yourself "There is only a 15% chance he's bluffing" and talk yourself out of calling down bluffs, well, you're not very good. At some point, you have to be able to trust your instincts.

Even if you believe in your read, it's still not smart to call a bluff with a bluff. All you beat is a smaller bluff. It's that much worse that it happened on the turn.

[SuperJon 175]

Now I'm not a high stakes player (yet) like some of you. I only play the .25-.50 NL Hold'em and PL Omaha games on UltimateBet. But anyone who thinks that this was a good call, both fundamentally and mathematically, has action. I would love to play the guy that called with K-J in a heads up match. $10 - $20, I know it's not much, but it means a lot to me.If anyone plays on UB and is interested in this challenge, PM me, and once again I play under the name SuperJon9000.good day

[cardcore 0]

We were playing live and I saw his internet finger, so I called.

[speedz99 145]

Now I'm not a high stakes player (yet) like some of you.  I only play the .25-.50 NL Hold'em and PL Omaha games on UltimateBet.  But anyone who thinks that this was a good call, both fundamentally and mathematically, has action.  I would love to play the guy that called with K-J in a heads up match.  $10 - $20, I know it's not much, but it means a lot to me.If anyone plays on UB and is interested in this challenge, PM me, and once again I play under the name SuperJon9000.good day

I'll play you. I think it was a good call fundamentally and mathematically. Stay near your computer from 9:30-11:00 tonight and instructions will follow.