excellent read / horrible play?

[jasonmason 0]

Late into a friendly home game sit and go - 200 starting chips per person, 3 handed with 1,000 on the table. We both have about 330 chips - almost dead even. Blinds are 4/8 and I'm in the BB. Button is first to act -Button raises my BB to 28Pretty standard of him for a strong ace or two high suited cardsI pick up K-10 and re-raise to 58time to feel out - he's not folding under any circumstancesjust a call and im putting him on A-K or A-Q or Q-Kre-raise and i'm out like a fat kid in dodgeballhe callsit seems kind of like a reluctant but "o well lets see a flop" callflop all rags & rainbow.. I think 2-4-9good - I can push him off overcards by representing a big hand hereWith about 270 left I fire a bet of 70 to see where I'm athe goes into the tank and calls(later he said this is where he picked off a tell on me and knew i was didn't want a call here)turn comes another ragAlthough I'm a little worried I'm behind at this point, I'm thinking I caught him with two overcardsI push for my last 200, he calls instantlyHe turns over K-J and is very proud of the callI said good read but terrible play. Even if you knew I was weak how can you call with king high? What are you putting me on? He's behind if I have a low pocket pair or a weak ace, there were no draws out there. Mircale 10 did not come and he had me covered by a single chip.Even if you're 100% sure of that read how do you play the hand like that? Why no re-raise of my 70 on the flop, even an all-in re-raise if you're going to put all your chips in with king high anyway?I'm amazed by my friends ability to read me but IMO he's definately way too stubborn on the poker table and he's easy to beat more often then not because of that.[/b]

[teneight 1]

it just seems like you posted because you want us to agree with you that it was a horrible call. but i dont agree with you. you are just mad that he read you like a coloring book. plus, he did have a tell on youteneight

[jasonmason 0]

That's exactly why I'm posting.He read me dead on. But it's still a bad call.

[pokerplayer24 0]

He called in a position where he was 90% to win so in this instance the call cannot be considered a bad call watsoever. Risky call yes, one that will most likely be wrong 5 out of 6 times, probly. But in this spot he must have had a ridiculous read and put you on a hand even weaker then A high.

[teneight 1]

it wasn't if he read you correctly. so you are saying that this is a bad call, then you are saying that in the hand the doyle brunson describes in SS1 were he won the hand with Jack high ::i think, correct me if i'm wrong::: by calling him on the river was also a bad call. he read you correct, just admit it

[jasonmason 0]

Lets try it the other way teneight.I have 330 chips and raise the BB to 28 with K-J. It's 3 handed and I have a pretty good hand.He re-raises me to 58. He probably has two high cards and is defending his BB.flop comes all rags. He bets 70 without much thought.There's that tell. I know he's weak. I'm 100% sure so I call.Turn comes another blank and he immediately goes all in.I know he's bluffing so I call.If I go into commentary will that help sway your opinion? Seriously if I posted it this way first you would commend me on my read and tell me I made a great play?

[teneight 1]

yup. if you ended up winning the hand.

[jasonmason 0]

So I went all in with A-3 and a gutshot or pocket threes it makes his play terrible instead of amazing?

[Guest]

Wow. You played that hand really, really terribly as a whole.

[Loismustdie 0]

It's a bad spot to get involved with a gambler, don't you think?

[teneight 1]

So I went all in with A-3 and a gutshot or pocket threes it makes his play terrible instead of amazing?

"if"if phil ivey didn't get bad beated on the final table of the ME in 2003.if people didn't flame in the FCP forums, it would be a better placeIFjust stop already.if you really want to get into the hand. you made a horrible play preflop. reraising only to 58 since you put him on a weak ace or two overcards. what are you really trying to accomplish by doing that. he has the odds to call your bet and he has position. if you really sensed weakness, your raise would be bigger...90-100, im sure he would fold then. ill stop there. i could analyze the flop/turn if you want as well

[GrinderMJ 0]

Yes, I think he made a bad call, your standard home game player is not good enough to pick up a tell so strong that he can justify putting all his chips in the pot with kj high. He may have read you as weak but he might have just been justifying his call with, "I had a tell." That being said, you way overplayed your k10, especially the reraise preflop. If you think this opponent is easy to beat like you said, slow down and grind him down with superior play, it's pretty simple.

[jasonmason 0]

Calling an all in for 200 more when you have 130 invested in a pot, when you have K-J with four undercards is a terrible call. It's not gambling. Even if someone is crying out in weakness it's brutal.JUST TELL ME HE MADE A BAD CALL!!! :cry:

[jasonmason 0]

((I'm crying out in weakness))I think I picked a good spot and made a pretty standard aggressive play to pick up a pot of 120.There's no doubt I'm waving a white flag right now trying to fix all my tells. He's good at finding them but I still think it was a stubborn call on his part.

[Guest]

JUST TELL ME HE MADE A BAD CALL!!!  :cry:

Right. Except he didn't really make a bad call. You tarded up the whole hand and then paid him off. I don't really see why thats so hard.

[jasonmason 0]

ok thanks Zerospace I suck at life

[93transam 0]

ok thanks Zerospace I suck at life

its one hand, move past itif you cant handle this beat, maybe you shouldnt be playing?

[Guest]

ok thanks Zerospace I suck at life

See now your just being silly

[jasonmason 0]

I'm kidding.This was a pretty low stakes tournament but it's usually a lot of advanced poker especially with this one particular opponent. We've actually been playing a lot of heads up Omaha H/L lately actually but went to holdem because it wasn't just us.This hand was not exactly advanced poker. We both played it really bad to get all in with K-J and K-10 with that board and 4/8 blinds.Again, I think even if I reek of tells and played the hand terribly, he made a brutal call with king high.Agree with me or go away dammiitt

[cardcore 0]

So, uh, I'm the friend in question. Let me clarify something here :)I play with JasonMason more than I play with anyone else, basically. The first time I ever posted here was because of a hand we were fighting over.Anyway, I made a pretty standard raise, he came over the top. We had *just* raised the blinds to the next level, and I figured it to be a standard blind defense. Fine, my hand is pretty good 3 handed, let's see a flop.I've got KJ offsuit, I have no idea what he's got, but I think it's in the same range as mine. The flop came all rags and rainbow, and I figured he missed as badly as I did. At this point, it was down to who had the bigger nothing.He fired out first with 70 chips, and I went into the tank thinking about whether or not to call. Besides the heavy bet screaming "please fold," I noticed he stiffened up when I reached for my chips. I hadn't called yet, but shuffled once and looked at him. That's when I threw my chips in to call.The turn brought another rag that didn't fill a straight, a flush, nothing. He immediately moved all in, and I thought for like 2 minutes. He dropped one of his chips on the floor, sat up, and I was asking him some questions.jasonmason was holding his breath :(He didn't speak, just nodded to the yes or no question ... didn't breathe, vein visible in his neck. I called. Hey, if I was wrong I was wrong, but I always go with my instinct. I honestly, HONESTLY thought my KJ was still good. And it was.It wasn't incredibly difficult to pick up information here. Further, Jasonmason needs to remember that I pointed out a huge tell of his before. It wasn't me being stubborn; KJ isn't exactly a hand that you get stuck on. You have no idea how hard it was for me to call for all my chips with that shitty hand, but I only did it because my read was really that dead on. The only way I can see I misplayed the hand is by not making a move on the flop.

[jasonmason 0]

You went into the tank and analyzed me before calling the bet of 70.You instantly called the all in after the turn fell.

[jasonmason 0]

by the way did you win the tourney?

[SuM827 0]

Here's where you're wrong Jason. If he is confident you're bluffing, it's a good call. Why? Because now you won't try to bluff him for a long time. Will you? If you think you may get called? He's just taken something away from your arsenal. You got owned.

[Elpedro 0]

I'm kidding.This was a pretty low stakes tournament but it's usually a lot of advanced poker especially with this one particular opponent. We've actually been playing a lot of heads up Omaha H/L lately actually but went to holdem because it wasn't just us.This hand was not exactly advanced poker. We both played it really bad to get all in with K-J and K-10 with that board and 4/8 blinds.Again, I think even if I reek of tells and played the hand terribly, he made a brutal call with king high.Agree with me or go away dammiitt

I hear what you're saying - but if he's a good player and reads you that well, you need to give him credit for a gutsy call here. If he's wrong he's an idiot if he's right he's a genius. Give him credit for being a genius on this particular hand.

[jasonmason 0]

..and you knew it was a bad call. It was one of those you had to see or else you'd be on tilt for the rest of the night :wink: remind you of some other hand I toasted you on?As soon as you called I shook my head and said "you got me" and you had a nervous "I know.. but.." look until I flipped my cards over. No way you were flipping first.