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Atlanta Fats

aa, got too cute? jul 31st

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BB has thought I was out of line all night, and has been trying to "catch" me, or make me fold.Preflop: Hero is SB with A:diamond:, A:club:. [color:#666666]7 folds[/color]Flop: (4 SB) 2:diamond:, 3:club:, 8:club: [color:#0000FF](2 players)[/color][color:#CC3333]Hero bets[/color]I think he has middle cards, like J10, or something.I could 3-bet, but I think he'll call-fold UI, and maybe he'll pair, and pay me off.[/b]Turn: (4 BB) K:club: [color:#0000FF](2 players)[/color]Hero checks, [color:#CC3333]BB bets[/color]I think I should've just bet, bet the turn, and river.What's the line here?

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I think you have to lead the turn. I also would raise the flop since there is an obvious flush draw. True, you have a redraw to the nut flush, but you should get money in while you're ahead.

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Your stop-n-go is okay. I prefer 3-betting to define his hand and then leading out when he calls, though.

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Doesnt really matter. Though if u just call the raise I think leading is terrible. What was the point of just calling flop in 1st place? To cr turn. So do it. I understand that a bad one could come off on turn but in that case check call the turn and river if need be. The check call flop and bet turn is a tourist move. Also go with your read. Don't give up, because you think ,"Oh I should have protected AA on flop, better bet turn." Follow through with your plan unless you have a good reaon to deviate. By check calling flop and leading turn one of two things happen. You forfeit the xtra bet u shouldve gained on flop if you dont cr the turn. Secondly, you might get raised again and you will still have no idea what the villain has. If you cr the turn you have demonstrated that you indeed have a powerful hand that you are taking to showdown. If the villain checks behind that is ok too because you can check river again on this draw heavy board an he will most likely take a stab. Try for a drama (im real weak check).

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bah.... white russians are kickin my ass..
bah........Boddingtons are kicking my assoh yeah, change it to color=

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Alcohol is g00t after a 1k + day aye mate?  ahhhh yes... White Russians...
ya, iss goot

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looks fine to me.the whole point of the flop call is to checkraise the turn.otherwise you should be three-betting that flop all day and all night (you're not seriously slowing down with an overpair heads-up here, are you?), but the whole point of this play is to squeeze an extra 0.5 BB from villian.this is standard usually?aseem(the fact that you have the A :club: makes it even more correct.)

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Interesting situation. There are some plays that might make sense in no limit that just don't work as well in limit. One of those plays is just calling on the flop and leading the turn. In limit hold'em you should follow the followinf rule for the most part: Whoever had last action should take the lead on the next street. So in your example, since you were looking to go for the check-raise on the turn you HAVE to check the turn. Unless of course you think your opponent is scared of that card and won't bet, but would call. Ultimately it comes down to reading your opponents tendancies, but in this example I think you played the hand fine. In fact, calling the raise on the flop and then leading out on the turn would have been a silly play IMO.

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I think it was played fine. If your read was that he'd bet the turn, then a check-raise is great here. I think you either 3 bet the flop and lead the turn or you just call the raise on the flop and check-raise the turn. The problem with calling the flop raise sometimes is if a scare card comes on the turn, it might kill your action and you lose bets.

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whoa!did daniel negreanu just reply on an everyday strategy post??and did this post just get stickied for no apparent reason??aseem

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In fact, calling the raise on the flop and then leading out on the turn would have been a silly play IMO.
I agree with this 100%.3-betting the flop and check/raising the turn are pretty close to me.If we didnt have the A :club: i would just 3-bet.

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Preflop: Hero is SB with A:diamond:, A:club:. 7 folds, BB calls. Flop: (4 SB) 2:diamond:, 3:club:, 8:club: (2 players)Hero bets, Hero calls. Turn: (4 BB) K:club: (2 players)Hero checks, BB betsi rule

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 In fact, calling the raise on the flop and then leading out on the turn would have been a silly play IMO.
I totally agree with this idea... But, I'm just wondering when the stop 'n go might have been a better idea... do you need a stronger hand like a set / two pair?

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Three-bet the flop, lead the turn (unless you got capped).Three-betting is important because there's a world of difference between him just flat-calling the three-bet, or if he's strong (or crazy) enough to cap it. Plus it defines your hand, because you are better than top pair top kicker.Some people see aces and out-think themselves all the time. I personally think it's quite ironic, because getting dealt pocket aces is the easiest hand in the entire deck to play: just bet. Lots and lots.

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i think he realizes that we are actually trying to learn from each other and not just be gossip queens.

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i think he realizes that we are actually trying to learn from each other and not just be gossip queens.
Either that or most of us give such horrible advice he can't stand not correcting us :club:

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If you are calling the flop to check-raise the turn, you must check on the turn no matter what card comes. I am not 100% sure that just calling the fl0p in order to pull the check-raise is the correct move, but if you start with a plan of action you have to follow through with it.The reason I am not 100% sure that calling then check-raising is correct is that when heads-up, many an opponent will raise on the flop there, hoping to get the free card on the turn, and we are running that risk of giving just that due to our position... :?

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If you are calling the flop to check-raise the turn, you must check on the turn no matter what card comes. I am not 100% sure that just calling the fl0p in order to pull the check-raise is the correct move, but if you start with a plan of action you have to follow through with it.The reason I am not 100% sure that calling then check-raising is correct is that when heads-up, many an opponent will raise on the flop there, hoping to get the free card on the turn, and we are running that risk of giving just that due to our position... :?
thats true, but in this situation, what do you think he'd really raise with hoping to get a free card with? a flush draw? that has us beat anyway. 45o? he's drawing to just 5 outs, we're not giving up much. also, he will be somewhat afraid of the flush, so it's not like he's gonna throw too many bets in there if he makes a straight.basically, i wouldn't be so worried about giving up a free card here, because any hand that's drawing live against us only has like 4 or 5 outs.i like this play. the only problem is if he 3-bets you when you check-raise, you are proli against a flush, and you lose an extra bet than if you had just bet-called.

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You showed weakness twice:You didn't three bet the flopYou checked the turnSome players, no matter what, see these two actions as much weaker than they are. Some players are great, if you check on *any* street they just believe you are bluffing. You, obviously, aren't.Of course, this might not be one of those players. But here's the deal:You're probably good - 238K board means he has to have 22, 33, 88, KK, 23, 28, 2K, 38, 3K, 8K, or two clubs to beat you. All the hands with a 2 probably aren't out, and he has to be extremely lucky to have two clubs. If you're not good, you have 7 outs against the flush, 15 outs against two pair, and 9 against a set. Like I said, you're *probably* good. Your check-raise on the turn easily put him in a place where he might have put in two big turn bets instead of just one if you three-bet the flop and bet the turn, which is exactly what you wanted. The K :club: is a bit of a bitch, since he might have been raising the flop for a free card on the turn, though. That's not enough to slow down though - the check-raise the turn was your play. I think the line from here is to call the turn three-bet (it's a bad place to take it to four bets without a strong read, but three is fine), check-call the river unimproved (might catch a bluff, since he is not going to call a river bet if he's on a bluff), probably bet if a club comes out (he probably isn't betting a four-flush board without a flush himself - and if he has a flush he might raise you - but he might call with a pair), and probably check-raise an A or a board pair (as long as it isn't the 8, that's his most likely pair in my mind), since he's likely to call with a worse two pair/set... but that's risky, since he might have the flush or a full house with a board pair.

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