my shaky laydown(weak)

[Pokerghost2 0]

i made a bad laydown last nite playing 2 5nl, at least results wise and i wanted to see how bad people thought it was. playing at the owls club in baltimore their 2 5 nl has a min buy in of 200 and a max of 500. after 3 hrs i am up about 500 i started with 300 and i have a good feel for the table when the following hand came up. ill try to give as many details as possible. utg+1 opens for 20$, young guy good player fairly tight aggressive also the big stack at the table with about 1k. i have not seen him put a bunch of money in without real good hands yet. plays well pre and postflop. i call in middle pos with 44 i have 800 in chips. next into the pot is the button who has about 800 like me maybe 850. he is a donkey, older loose aggressive and a little drunk. has made a few deceptive plays tho. And finally the sb calls, asian lady pretty but a complete and total donkey. shes short with about 125 in chips she calls any bet with any 2 and shes stuck about 1.5k. So now the flop, it comes Jh 4d 9h. asian lady checks, young guy bets 30$ into an 85$ pot. at this point i am confused i havent seen him bet less than half the pot yet. i raise it up to 130$ total when it gets to me. the old guy, with 20$ invested smoothcalls immediately. asian lady debates and then calls all in. young guy immediately says lets raise it up and raises it 300$ more. now im in a pickle. i ask him how many chips he has left and he counts them looking as happy as a guy could ever look. i am now completely lost in this hand so i decide to put him on a range of hands. i am thinking he has AKh, AA, KK, QQ, or JJ, possibly 99. while im debating what to do, the old guy elmer is lining up his chips to push in! Now, ive played with him maybe 10 times and when he lines them up like that they always always go in. so there i am, up 350$ for the day knowing that i either have to play bottom set all in against both of these guys or do the unthinkable and drop it.after sweating it out for like 4 or 5 min i lay it down. sick to my stomach. elmer pushes, young guy beats him into the pot with a call. what would you guys have done in that spot?

[Blink20 0]

You have to put all your chips in here. No question.Only guy you are worried about it the utg player, sure he could have jacks, but he could be protecting overpair from flush draw. He could also have a hand like AK or AQ of hearts for flush draw with two overs. There are just too many hands he could have.Don't even worry about your drunken friend or t he lady, as you know they could have any two pair, or just top pair, or just a silly draw.Put all you money in and say nice hand when he flips up higher set, or rake in all the money when your set holds :-)

[KappaKid83 0]

Unfortunately you probably have to fold there and give the Young Kid Credit for JJ, even though he proly has KK or AA. The drunk guy proly has J9 or the flush draw and the Asian Lady Proly has something like QJ or KJ but its the young kid you are worried about, so make the lay down and pick a better spot to go up against the kid and hope the Asian and the Drunk rebuy.JEFF

[tdmlb24 0]

This is very tought. If it is $800 in total I am going to have to call away with bottom set I think I might fold here.

[tskillz187 0]

I'd fold bottom set there, I'm not trying to get bottom set all in with 3 callers, too likely you are beat, and when you are ahead you are slightly ahead of the field, assuming one has overpair, other has top two, and another has flush draw, thats up to 15 outs they have as a team, granted you would be getting about 3:1 on your money, I just don't want to play bottom set against three opponents. Fold.

[MattH 0]

I think at that point it is a 50:50 prop and it all comes down to reads.If you think the young kid would over play AA/KK you would have to call... hell he could even think he was golden with a hand like A/JBut you also have to figure out the hidden outs, would any of them play a hand like Q/10 in that situation etc.It is really hard to make that call with two people also willing to go all in.I see both sides of both call and fold... I'm interested to see how the hand played out personally.

[Don Giovanni 0]

theres a card club in baltimore??? gambling is illeagal in maryland, is this an underground type place?

[Sea Wasp 0]

I think the key to the hand is the young guy's smallish flop bet. If he has AK hearts then he's small bet makes sense, trying to get a great price on his draw. Following on from this idea, you can discard the flush draw from the range of hands you put him on beause he reraises your raise. He has a big hand here and i would be surprised if he turns over less then trip 9's.It is a solid fold also because of what a previous poster said regarding bottom set vs 3 players with that board. Even if you are ahead (which i doubt) i am sure you can find a better spot to get all your money in.Nothing weak about this laydown.

[pokerplayer24 0]

My guess on this hand would be that the asian lady had Jx, elmer has some sort of flush draw and the young kid has an overpair. Most likely KK or AA.I think its tough to fold this hand here just because of the size of the pot. You only have to be right once every 2 or 3 times to justify a call.

[Footballguru 0]

I would pus it all in.Really seems like he has KK and is putting you on AJ. Harrington says having an underset is just tough luck and you have to pay it off everytime. WAY too many hands youc an beat to justify a fold.

[DaBruins 0]

well your biggest mistake IMO is called a 20 dollar raise from UTG+1 who you know to be a tight aggressive player. I lay down my 44 right then and there because if i dont hit it on the flop i'm going to be bet out of the pot. From what it sounds like, the old guy who called quickly is probably on a draw, the donkey asian lady probably has top pair, and UTG+1 probably has an overpair and is trying to kick those draws out of this hand before they bite him. Bottom set is sometimes vulnerable even if its the best hand because the flush/straight draws might get there and if the board pairs then anyone who had top 2 pair now has a bigger boat then you do. But having said that, i probably call here in this situation with my bottom set.

[Guest]

A very tough call. BTW what did they have?

[Guest]

If the game was slighty smaller in limits i would put the kid on AA, but in that buy in he could very likely have JJ counting on 2 calling stations to pay him off.

[Poker4Me2005 0]

I would definitely call here, I would consider folding but in the end i make the call. Theres no doubt you have the 2 donkeys beat. One is probably on the flush draw at best. Probably hands like KJ/QJ/J9...maybe even AX or KX suited or Q10, trouble hands donkeys love. I think the key here is that you called preflop with 44 and thats a hand I'm pretty sure the young kid that is playing tight/aggressive probably wouldnt expect. He probably thinks its more likely your on the nut flush draw w/AQ/AK hearts or have AJ. He probably has AA or KK and figured there was a good chance you'd fold alot of hands on that flop but knew the donkeys would most likely call a bet of only $30 with random hands to pay him off. After you raise it changes his situation because your a good player and he wants to protect against your hand. You said you had a good read on the old man and knew he was going to call. Huge pot forming and although the possiblity of someone outdrawing you is there or the small chance your already beat, you do have the 3rd nuts on the flop. Odds of 2 people flopping sets is so low(i think its 1/69? when both have pairs preflop. Not positive on that.), I'd definitely take my chances in this situation. You called preflop hoping to hit your set... the board isnt all suited or connected. I understand your reasons for folding but it seems like you just wanted to hold onto your winnings and failed to make the correct decision because you factored that into your reasoning. This hand is the difference between a huge win on the night with that $2500+ pot, a loss of one buyin, or a small win at that level. Make that call and live with the outcome or move down to a level where you can.

[ATM 0]

poker4me2005 is right, you play the 4's in hopes of hitting the set, you hit, you should normally push, if the large pot is what scared you away and the possiblility of a loss is lingering, then theres one thing wrong with you... your not willing to do what your there for, to gamble. Sure the possiblity is out there that ur set is beat, but id push here with the 3rd nuts, your there to make money and the pot is ginourmous and your cards are good, get in there tiger, take them down. ........so what happend anyways?

[Mr Monkey 0]

call. quit playing scared. it seems that u folded because u wanted to make sure that u left a winner because you were scared to lose any money

[Abbaddabba 0]

You shouldn't be playing 2/5 no limit if you have to think that long and hard about being all in with a set on the flop, with no flush or straight out yet, against one aggressive player and two calling stations.Look at it from the aggressive players perspective. He has two calling stations in on the hand. He knows that they'll call his all in with top pair. Wouldn't that be a fairly GOOD reason to push with an over pocket pair? Your raise doesn't mean much to him because his original bet was quite small, as you said. He could think that you're testing his hand with top pair, or something comparably weak. Isn't that what you would do if the PFR put a smallish bet in after the flop, and you had top pair?Under normal circumstances he may not have raised you. The fact is, with so much dead money in the pot, he should be willing to take the risk that you have a legitimate hand because in the case that you dont, hes cashing in much more on all the other players.But i think this is all meaningless, because he probably DID have you beat, and youre posting this to feel good about your decision.

[gerrety 0]

I would definitely call here, I would consider folding but in the end i make the call. Theres no doubt you have the 2 donkeys beat. One is probably on the flush draw at best. Probably hands like KJ/QJ/J9...maybe even AX or KX suited or Q10, trouble hands donkeys love. I think the key here is that you called preflop with 44 and thats a hand I'm pretty sure the young kid that is playing tight/aggressive probably wouldnt expect. He probably thinks its more likely your on the nut flush draw w/AQ/AK hearts or have AJ. He probably has AA or KK and figured there was a good chance you'd fold alot of hands on that flop but knew the donkeys would most likely call a bet of only $30 with random hands to pay him off. After you raise it changes his situation because your a good player and he wants to protect against your hand. You said you had a good read on the old man and knew he was going to call. Huge pot forming and although the possiblity of someone outdrawing you is there or the small chance your already beat, you do have the 3rd nuts on the flop. Odds of 2 people flopping sets is so low(i think its 1/69? when both have pairs preflop. Not positive on that.), I'd definitely take my chances in this situation. You called preflop hoping to hit your set... the board isnt all suited or connected. I understand your reasons for folding but it seems like you just wanted to hold onto your winnings and failed to make the correct decision because you factored that into your reasoning. This hand is the difference between a huge win on the night with that $2500+ pot, a loss of one buyin, or a small win at that level. Make that call and live with the outcome or move down to a level where you can.

I agree with this 100%. If I hit a set and run into a higher set, I'm probably not getting away from it & someone is getting paid off.

[troyomac 0]

depending on how much money the 2 donkeys had left ( you may have mentioned it, i'm just too lazy to go and recheck it) say you had 800 to start the hand and the kid had 1000. i don't think you should even worry about the donkeys hands because even if after the final board, the pretty lady with less money wins, and the old drunk has the 2nd best hand...if you can get the kid to go all in for all his money....you only have to be beating HIM to make profit on the hand, and there is a great chance that he is drawing slim.

[Pokerghost2 0]

it seems like it was sort of split on opinions here and i have to say i agree with those who thought i was protecting a win instead of going for it. ur exactly right. i hated myself after the fold, but the kids smallish bet then reraise really spooked me i just couldnt see him making that play without a set given my table image. as it turns out we were all wrong about the hands but a few of you had the kid pegged. the drunk had AJ but no hearts, the asian lady had K9o, and the kid had AA. after i folded turn 9 river A. however it was a bad fold anyway regardless of the outcome i have to put my money in there and live with the results, in my opinion.my poker playing friends all thought that it was a bad laydown although most thought it was extremely close as to what to do between pushing and folding. i was so shook after the hand that i misplayed one more medium hand, and left with a small 100$ win and my tail between my legs. im just glad i had the wherewithal to realise that i had to leave or i feel i would have booked a big loser. thx for the replies, they were xcellent.

[Pokerghost2 0]

theres a card club in baltimore??? gambling is illeagal in maryland, is this an underground type place?

its a private club don the rake goes to charities if ur interested i think the rolls are open so let me know. they provide security for when u leave, they serve drinks u just have to tip and even have food. games are mostly 10 20 30 lim mixed 2 rds holdem 1 rd stud, 2 5nl, 5 10nl, and occasionally 10 25 nl. the lim is the same as 10 20 except the river bets in stud and HE are in increments of 30 instead of 20.

[Don Giovanni 0]

theres a card club in baltimore??? gambling is illeagal in maryland, is this an underground type place?

its a private club don the rake goes to charities if ur interested i think the rolls are open so let me know. they provide security for when u leave, they serve drinks u just have to tip and even have food. games are mostly 10 20 30 lim mixed 2 rds holdem 1 rd stud, 2 5nl, 5 10nl, and occasionally 10 25 nl. the lim is the same as 10 20 except the river bets in stud and HE are in increments of 30 instead of 20.

those stakes are a little too high for me but thanks for the info.

[allinbluff35 0]

call. quit playing scared. it seems that u folded because u wanted to make sure that u left a winner because you were scared to lose any money

[Pokerghost2 0]

You shouldn't be playing 2/5 no limit if you  have to think that long and hard about being all in with a set on the flop, with no flush or straight out yet, against one aggressive player and two calling stations.Look at it from the aggressive players perspective.  He has two calling stations in on the hand.  He knows that they'll call his all in with top pair.  Wouldn't that be a fairly GOOD reason to push with an over pocket pair?  Your raise doesn't mean much to him because his original bet was quite small, as you said.  He could think that you're testing his hand with top pair, or something comparably weak.  Isn't that what you would do if the PFR put a smallish bet in after the flop, and you had top pair?Under normal circumstances he may not have raised you.  The fact is, with so much dead money in the pot, he should be willing to take the risk that you have a legitimate hand because in the case that you dont, hes cashing in much more on all the other players.But i think this is all meaningless, because he probably DID have you beat, and youre posting this to feel good about your decision.

a little presumptious arent you? Fact is, he didnt have me beat when the money went in, i did think it was a bad laydown as soon as i did it. who the fk are u to guess that i want my ego soothed? im a winning player and have been for years, i wanted feedback from other good players. it was a tough decision at the time for me given my read on the ep player. i had that table under my thumb, and i really felt from comments he had made previous that he would do whatever he could to steer clear of me. ill readily admit i made a bad play, but bad players never make a laydown. thats ur free lesson, next time try and be right if ur going to guess my motivation. my ego is plenty big enough i dont need it stroked, but i have something else u can stroke tho.

[tskillz187 0]

i still stand by the good laydown, i dont try to get all in with my whole stack in a nl cash game against 3 opponents, this isnt a tourney, there is no need to put all that money on the line in a coinflip situation. maybe your nl cash game is much tougher than mine, but i can find much better spots than calling all in with bottom set into three players. sit around and beat up on the 2 crappy players... i liked everything about your play, i would have played it exactly the same, only praised myself for the fold and stayed in the game!