a-10, this is standard, right? (limit he)

[akishore 0]

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converterPreflop: Hero is MP1 with T:heart:, A:spade:. UTG calls, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls.Flop: (12.50 SB) A:club:, J:spade:, 9:club: [color:#0000FF](6 players)[/color]BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero bets, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, Hero folds, ...aseem

[Stallion714 0]

Unless runner runner is your thing.

[Actuary 3]

yes, solid.You getting about 8:1 on the call... and likely one more raise coming...so effectively.... 12.50+4x4 = 28.5 : 4 or 7:1...hmm..I don't know.Could button be 3-betting 10's - K's..trying to fold a weak Ace...since no one 3-bet PF button may be smart enuf to try this...But then you got the two UTG's cold calling..and no good draws for you..Plus the J 9 workds nice for a lot of limpers hands..So even though, I'd guess you were ahead now..quite possibly...the reverse implied odds look nasty..board coordinated..lots of action...good fold.

[MrNiceGuy 0]

I'd fold.I raise this PF; does anybody else?

[Guest XXEddie]

I'd fold.I raise this PF; does anybody else?

If I was in CO/Button I wouldbut yeah, this looks standard, 95% of the time at least one of them has you beat

[KDawgCometh 2]

I raise this PF; does anybody else?

yes

[akishore 0]

I raise this PF; does anybody else?

yes

i won't put up much of a fight about this at all.it's really pretty close between limping and raising.AKo/AQo i definitely raise. AJo/KQo i sometimes raise depending on how many limpers, etc. i'm just not too fond of building a big pot with ATo/KJo in multiway pots.i'm just not a fan of offsuit cards in big multiway pots in general.*shrug*aseem

[KDawgCometh 2]

I raise this PF; does anybody else?

yes

i won't put up much of a fight about this at all.it's really pretty close between limping and raising.AKo/AQo i definitely raise. AJo/KQo i sometimes raise depending on how many limpers, etc. i'm just not too fond of building a big pot with ATo/KJo in multiway pots.i'm just not a fan of offsuit cards in big multiway pots in general.*shrug*aseem

I think if you were in the CO or BUtton I wouldn't mind the limp, but here you have a shot at shutting out those behind you and getting position on the two limpers

[wrto4556 0]

kdawg is dead on.

[akishore 0]

I think if you were in the CO or BUtton I wouldn't mind the limp, but here you have a shot at shutting out those behind you and getting position on the two limpers

seems a little counterintuitive (raising in MP but limping in LP), but i definitely understand what you're saying.aseem

[Actuary 3]

I don't like a raise here, with 6 left to act...Maybe if you were a couple seats to the left....I like the isolation attempt, but it hardly works at this level.You'll usually still be out of position.Raising just makes it multiway for 2 betsEquity edge play then, but w/o suitedness and a mid-kicker, our post flop edge if it exists won't be easy to exploit. - I don't like this hands post-flop lack-of visibility, especially multi-way.( please disregard anything I say that doesn't echo Kdawg and WRTO, if they happen to agree, it's just lucky ! :-) )

[KDawgCometh 2]

I think if you were in the CO or BUtton I wouldn't mind the limp, but here you have a shot at shutting out those behind you and getting position on the two limpers

seems a little counterintuitive (raising in MP but limping in LP), but i definitely understand what you're saying.aseem

don't see how its counterintuitive, there is a major difference between being in LP and knowing that no one can really limp behind you, and being able to shut out the players behind you and possibly gaining position, really it just makes sense. Honestly, lately you have been defining things as absolutes in poker, when we know that poker doesn't live in absolutes

[princeof56k 0]

I have a question rather than a comment.I usually dont play AT offsuit in this situation when a couple of people come in early (which I'm assuming is too tight from the responses to the original post). However, I do play it if its folded to me in mid-late position and I'm usually raising it.At what point do yall draw the line with Ax offsuit? Are yall playing A9 or A8 offsuit?

[KDawgCometh 2]

I have a question rather than a comment.I usually dont play AT offsuit in this situation when a couple of people come in early (which I'm assuming is too tight from the responses to the original post). However, I do play it if its folded to me in mid-late position and I'm usually raising it.At what point do yall draw the line with Ax offsuit? Are yall playing A9 or A8 offsuit?

A9o and A8o are generally crap, unless I'm in late position and there is a early limper, I'll raise to isloate the limper. A9s and A8s is a definate limp there, but a raise from LP

[TheIceman05 0]

I lean towards agreeing with KDawg's analysis here. If I'm going to play a marginal ace in middle position, I need to be raising with it so AJ, KQo, and KJ have the ability to fold. I like trying to buy the button from MPs with weaker aces and giving straightforward players the chance to 3-bet me with badarse hands.If I'm in LP with ATo in a multiway pot, I raise occassionally, but usually when the limps in front of me can be taken as a sign of weakness and the limpers play poorly after the flop. But the situation has to be pretty good, otherwise I probably won't raise until the turn so I can punish A4 and second pair.I add nothingIce[/b]

[akishore 0]

I think if you were in the CO or BUtton I wouldn't mind the limp, but here you have a shot at shutting out those behind you and getting position on the two limpers

seems a little counterintuitive (raising in MP but limping in LP), but i definitely understand what you're saying.aseem

don't see how its counterintuitive, there is a major difference between being in LP and knowing that no one can really limp behind you, and being able to shut out the players behind you and possibly gaining position, really it just makes sense. Honestly, lately you have been defining things as absolutes in poker, when we know that poker doesn't live in absolutes

i said i understood what you meant.and it does seem counterintuitive, since playing position properly generally means loosening up in late position with both your playable hands as well as your raisable hands. that is, generally, we raise more hands in late position than we do in middle than we do in early.here, however, we're raising something in middle position that we wouldn't be raising in late position.just a little counterintuitive, but i understand what you're saying. and relax, i didn't say anything about absolutes. except that Absolute is a wanker. aseem

[akishore 0]

I don't like a raise here, with 6 left to act...Maybe if you were a couple seats to the left....I like the isolation attempt, but it hardly works at this level.You'll usually still be out of position.Raising just makes it multiway for 2 betsEquity edge play then, but w/o suitedness and a mid-kicker, our post flop edge if it exists won't be easy to exploit.

this is how i feel.aseem

[harvey 0]

I agree with Actuary and Akishore.

[blueodum 0]

Raise or fold pre-flop.By raising the limpers from middle position, you are representing a bigger hand than you've actually got. The players acting behind you should only enter the pot if they've got a good hand or at least a drawing hand like a suited connector or Ax suited (counting on the early limpers to call, thereby giving them good pot-odds for their draw).If you're fortunate enough to get almost everyone else to fold (the BB will likely call), you can try to push the limpers out even if you miss the flop.A-10 off is not a hand I like to play against many opponents. The chances of you getting beat by a better ace are significant. If you flop TPTK tens, there's a good chance you will be beat if a J,Q or K comes on the turn or river.A lot depends on how dumb the players are at your table. If you anticipate a large number of players seeing the flop even if you raise, I think it's best to fold this one. The larger the pre-flop pot is, the better odds all the drawing hands are getting.

[wrto4556 0]

ATo is gold.

[MrNiceGuy 0]

I don't like a raise here, with 6 left to act...Maybe if you were a couple seats to the left....I like the isolation attempt, but it hardly works at this level.You'll usually still be out of position.Raising just makes it multiway for 2 betsEquity edge play then, but w/o suitedness and a mid-kicker, our post flop edge if it exists won't be easy to exploit.

this is how i feel.aseem

Here's why I raise PF:It's not like AT is a junk hand in a multiway pot - it's still a fairly strong hand. It's drawback multiway (relative to AK, AQ, AJ) is that when you pair the ten, the hand is still very vulnerable. The more people that are in the pot, the more vulnerable it is.Raising here gets you:1) Value - AT almost certainly has an equity edge here2) Thin the field - You might not fold out everyone behind you, but you'll fold out some. I'd rather play AT for two bets (and possibly some dead blind money) vs. 3-4 opponents than for one bet against 6-8 opponents.3) Position - Even if you don't get the button, you'll at least be nearer to it if you fold out potential limpers behind you.4) Fold out equal or better hands - Tight players will fold AT, AJ, AQ behind you.