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lhe, not bet/fold..right? bet/call maybe 3-bet


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You already have 3 folders reducing the chance for the neccessary odds. If you had a couple limpers already, I might call in mp1 at a really loose/passive table.
This is the most important point in the whole discussion.No-one else in the pot makes this a bad call.The holding and the position are both borderline.It's going to be a small -EV, but with 3 folds its as bad as it gets for limping
guys, it's really not as bad as you're making it out to be.straight from an ed miller pre-flop quiz in his 2+2 microlimit collection:
5. Folded to you in MP (four off the button) with 33.Call. I included this example because it runs specifically counter to the advice given in HPFAP. In a tougher game (explains HPFAP), you should probably fold 33 from MP if it is folded to you. You can't expect multiway action, and you are concerned about being isolated. If you played, you'd probably raise to take a shot at the blinds. But in this game, you can limp in now and still have a six-handed pot. Trying to steal the blinds is silly in this game. Pocket pairs are again too good to fold.
although this is specific to low pocket pairs, i'm sure you guys understand that it's just as applicable to A-x suited and high-end K-x suited (e.g. K-8 suited).it's too good to pass up EV-wise.aseem
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You're contradicting yourself. A 2 would never win a kicker war, and more people are playing bad Aces than bad Kings making it more likely your kicker will cost you a pot.
yes, but A2s makes a straight. And A2s makes the highest pair rather than the second, and the nut flush rather than the second nut. It has alot more going for it in terms of holding up multiway.. I'd call with it UTG. As for kickers, having one card lower kicker gives 12 more hands combinations that dominate you. And just in general, flopping a pair of eights will hold up less than nines...statisically speaking. Its not that big of a difference, but combined with losing the straight possibility it all adds up, which is why its usually played differently than K9s. But, like I said, with 1 or 2 limpers already in I'd be up for a call. I think I'd fold here though. But I don't think it matters too much...<shrug>
oh man, please don't bring up the wheel possibility.read SSHE if you haven't. if you have, i'm disappointed.you should know that wheel possibility is way overrated since it can only make one straight that will never be the nut straight, and even that happens extremely rarely, so rarely that the kicker's top pair value is worth way more than the straight value (e.g. A-6 suited is DEFINITELY worth more EV-wise than A-5 suited... you can check your PT database on that).sorry, i'm not trying to be a pain in the ass about it, but really, K8s is really an okay limp. it's not bad!to quote ed miller again...
Say two people limp, and I have J6s on the button. Should I call? Probably not. But how big an error is it if I were to call?It's small. Like tiny. A fraction of a fraction of a small bet. For instance, calling with J8s is probably correct. J7s might even be right. That's about where the line is. If J7s is just about break-even, how bad could J6s be?Is J7s a monster compared to J6s? Do you fall off some magic profitability cliff between those two hands? Will calling with J6s ruin you? NO! That's absurd. If J7s is break-even, then J6s can fare no worse than -2% or so of a bet. Like a two cents at most in a $1-$2 game. Probably not even that much.
K-10 suited is a clear limp, right?K-9 suited is a pretty good limp as well.K-8 suited is damn close, and i will argue strongly that it is +EV combined with good postflop skills.aseem
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everybody is focusing in on the 3 folds, when there are still 6 loose players left to act behind you. Flopping a pair of 8's only loses more than flopping a pair of 9's when someone has a 9 and pairs it. That's so close it doesn't matter. What 12 hands dominate K8 that don't dominate K9? A8 has you dominated but it's ahead of K9 too. you can add 88 and K9. I see 3 hands that would have K8 dominated and not K9. And A2 makes the shitty end of a straight, the one card difference in flush strength is minimal. If A2s is better than K8s in this spot it's so close it doesn't matter. The only thing A2s has going for it that K8s doesn't is that it can make a pair of A's and no overcard can come to that pair. However, I'd rather have a pair of K's with a middling kicker and let them draw to a 2 or 3 outer than a pair of A's with no kicker and more than likely have some stupid A-x have me outkicked.

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everybody is focusing in on the 3 folds, when there are still 6 loose players left to act behind you.
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oh man, please don't bring up the wheel possibility.
Its just one extra thing... combined with the other things I listed. It does count for something though. Look at the difference in your PT database between A5s and A6s; it better shows how the straight possibility makes a difference.
read SSHE if you haven't. if you have, i'm disappointed.
I have it memorized (j/k). Anyway, SSHE says k8s is a late position only call.
K-10 suited is a clear limp, right?
heck, you could raise with it sometimes.
K-9 suited is a pretty good limp as well.
yes
K-8 suited is damn close
I agree which is why it would only take a couple up front limpers to convince me...
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Its just one extra thing... combined with the other things I listed. It does count for something though. Look at the difference in your PT database between A5s and A6s; it better shows how the straight possibility makes a difference.
The wheel possibility gives you at most a gutshot on the flop, and only if 2 of 12 cards hit the flop.
I have it memorized (j/k). Anyway, SSHE says k8s is a late position only call.
K-10 suited is a clear limp, right?
heck, you could raise with it sometimes.
You keep saying how SSHE says K8s is only a call from late position, but you want to raise K-10s from here? Stop contradicting yourself. If you're sticking that strictly by SSHE, it doesn't say to raise K-10s from middle position.
K-8 suited is damn close
I agree which is why it would only take a couple up front limpers to convince me...
READ MY POST ABOVE. ASEEM EVEN QUOTED ME. IT'S THERE TWICE. You're too worried about the 3 folds in front of you rather than the 6 loose/passive players behind you.EDIT: I'm not saying K8s is a great limp or that it's an automatic limp. I'm saying it's not a bad limp by any means. If you disagree (not just you Harvey, anyone) that's fine, it's so close it doesn't really matter, but I haven't heard one good reason why limping there is bad.
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Look at the difference in your PT database between A5s and A6s; it better shows how the straight possibility makes a difference.
i've already brought that up to support my argument. you take a look at YOURS.A6s is clearly better than A5s, EV-wise, in my PT database. (it's 0.02 BB/hand better on one site, and 0.13 BB/hand better on another site, and 0.26 BB/hand better on a third site... in order of biggest sample set to smallest.)
I have it memorized (j/k). Anyway, SSHE says k8s is a late position only call.
you might have missed the part where it said the tables were guidelines only.they are NOT rigid.i'm not trying to be mean, sorry if it's coming off like that.we're just beating a dead horse here.i strongly believe K-8 suited is a completely good limp there. if you don't, that's fine.i'm done with this.aseem
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Aseem, You have given excellent advice in this thread EXCEPT the part where you say it is OK to limp with K8s from MP in a loose aggressive game. This is bad advice IMO. Most of the time it will get raised behind you. I know this isn't too bad if the game is loose, because the pot will probably be contested multiway, so paying one bet more doesn't decrease your EV that much.

in general, the more aggressive the table is, the looser it has to be to make speculative multiway hands profitable.
But in loose aggressive games, there will often be a raise and a reraise behind you, making your hand unplayable. Also, the aggression from the flop on will make it much more difficult to play your hand than if it was a passive game.In loose aggressive games, you must be a bit more selective with your starting hands, because it costs more to play the hands PF relative to the blinds.
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What 12 hands dominate K8 that don't dominate K9?
I was referring to the 12 k9 combinations. Sorry if that wasn't explained well.
i've already brought that up to support my argument. you take a look at YOURS.A6s is clearly better than A5s, EV-wise, in my PT database. (it's 0.02 BB/hand better on one site, and 0.13 BB/hand better on another site, and 0.26 BB/hand better on a third site... in order of biggest sample set to smallest.)
Oh, sorry I misread it as A2s vs A6s. In my database, A5s does better. In pokerroom's database it does better as wellhttp://www.pokerroom.com/games/evstats/positionStats.php?players=10 ://http://www.pokerroom.com/games/evst...php?players=10
they are NOT rigid.
Hey, you and rise were qouting miller, so I thought I'd bring it up. They aren't rigid, but the prevailing conditions of the hand would make it less desireable, not more desireable.
we're just beating a dead horse here.
I agree something I tend to do at 5 in the morning for whatever reason....I guess we will agree to disagree. (but after I get the last word of course)
Stop contradicting yourself. If you're sticking that strictly by SSHE, it doesn't say to raise K-10s from middle position.
Its not a contradiction. I am not strictly following small stakes holdem. YOU GUYS brought up small stakes holdem first, I was just politely pointing out that the book you were referencing for k9s disagreed with you about k8s. Since we all hold the book in high regard, I thought it was useful. there are hand conditions that make it okay to raise with k10s sometimes in MP. Like I said, I don't strictly follow SSH. But.........Since I read the forums alot, and feel akishore is one of the best posters at FCP, I will humbly take both of your advice into consideration :-)
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You already have 3 folders reducing the chance for the neccessary odds. If you had a couple limpers already, I might call in mp1 at a really loose/passive table.
This is the most important point in the whole discussion.No-one else in the pot makes this a bad call.The holding and the position are both borderline.It's going to be a small -EV, but with 3 folds its as bad as it gets for limping
guys, it's really not as bad as you're making it out to be.
Aseem, I'm not suggesting that it is a massive mistake, thats why I've said small -EV.The point remains though that it will be -'ve EV and making -'ve EV calls preflop is one of the most expensive mistakes you can make in limit.K8s has a little high card strength, no straight strength and only suitedness in its favour so to make it possibly +EV you need the following.Passive table - yesLarge field - chances are greatly reduced with 3/7.5 of the VPIP goneGood position - MP1 and no players in front apart from the blinds. We have the worst position possible.To make good calls preflop with borderline hands you need as much as possible in your favour. The real issue here is not that we are considering limping with K8s in MP1 but the fact that we've lost sight of what makes a marginal hand playable. Keep this mentality for similar hands and its quickly going to add up to a big leak.
straight from an ed miller pre-flop quiz in his 2+2 microlimit collection:
5. Folded to you in MP (four off the button) with 33.Call. I included this example because it runs specifically counter to the advice given in HPFAP. In a tougher game (explains HPFAP), you should probably fold 33 from MP if it is folded to you. You can't expect multiway action, and you are concerned about being isolated. If you played, you'd probably raise to take a shot at the blinds. But in this game, you can limp in now and still have a six-handed pot. Trying to steal the blinds is silly in this game. Pocket pairs are again too good to fold.
although this is specific to low pocket pairs, i'm sure you guys understand that it's just as applicable to A-x suited and high-end K-x suited (e.g. K-8 suited).it's too good to pass up EV-wise.aseem
This is really poor and I expect better from you Aseem. small pocket pairs are the easiest hand to play in loose games - hit or fold and no domination (ie reverse implied odds) issues.To suggest there is any relevence in that quote from Miller is simply wrong.
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I don't have time to sit here and reply to every comment I want to, so I'll just say that I still haven't seen any good reasons to fold here. Like I've said about 3 or 4 times already, the only remotely decent arguement I've seen for folding this is that there are 3 folds ahead of us, but still nobody is realizing that there are 6 loose/passive players yet to act behind us. On these types of tables, there will still usually be 5 or 6 players going to a flop, and that's plenty to play a decent suited K. There are also no really good reasons to play it here, there are just marginal reasons for both folding and limping. The PF play is fine, anybody who says different is being really nitpicky.

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To the OP:The preflop call is "borderline," but not in the traditional sense. By "borderline," I don't mean there's some magical probability cliff you stay on with K9s but fall tumbling into the abyss of fish-dom if you limp with K8s. By "borderline" here, I mean the EV of the call is probably between +.02 small bets and -.02 small bets, so it doesn't really much matter if you call it or fold it. The looseness of the table, and the bad quality of opponents (higher implied odds) makes it more to the decision of calling.But my point is in the grand scheme of things it doesn't make that big a difference to your bankroll to make this preflop call or fold.Preflop, what matters in terms of leaks is if you make consistently bad EV calls like T4o or Q6o all the time.Anyway, I think the flop and turn were played fine.Bet/call is the preferred line for the river, and Villain made a huge mistake of raising the river with anything less than an ace high flush, IMO. But that's why he's Villain, and we want to take his money. You still can't re-raise a river raise with a paired board and a 2nd-nut flush though.

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so much attention has been given to the pf limp, when I said in the OP that it was loose. Its a infintisimally small error or small good play..either way its small.I wanted more discussion on the river bet/call.Flop bet,Turn {edit} check (kinda obvious)Post flop play is where the $$ are won and lost, given you make pretty solid pre-flop choices...and this is close enough.I'll assume the rest of the play was splendid!And this discussion had no other point of contention.thanks for all the input.And folks have commented on the rest of the hand...I knowJust rreading the thread though, one would think the pre-flop play was the most material one, and I disagree.

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I didn't mean to sound so needy :-) thanks.more or less just wanted to steer any other discussions on to more important aspects....really...I guess the whole hands been discussed enough...just too much on a small insig part.

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Yes, flop bet for value...I'm looking really good here..and have 3 others with me..pushing the equity (I think that's what it's called)Yes, I'd 3 bet the river.I'm losing to only one hand if no pair on board.It may cost me 2 bets, as I'd call a cap too, but I'm thinking we're good often enough from most raisers.( well I guess we're losing to str8 flushes too...still 3-bet)( gee now I think..before anyone else responds...I'm pretty passive on the river and a raise might give me concern about Ax clubs...but I ....still raise...ok thats it..raise.

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By "borderline" here, I mean the EV of the call is probably between +.02 small bets and -.02 small bets, so it doesn't really much matter if you call it or fold it. The looseness of the table, and the bad quality of opponents (higher implied odds) makes it more to the decision of calling.But my point is in the grand scheme of things it doesn't make that big a difference to your bankroll to make this preflop call or fold.Preflop, what matters in terms of leaks is if you make consistently bad EV calls like T4o or Q6o all the time.
:clap: The rest of the hand looks good. The flop bet can't be for value because we're not sure if we'd get enough callers to get value out of a bet. And I doubt our fold equity is high enough to fold out 3 other players with a single bet, right? Or am I off here? I think I like checking the flop, and possibly going for a check/raise if there's a bet and atleast 1 other caller.
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But you don't get value for it if you only get 1 caller, I don't think. I'm not sure if betting or checking is right, but I'm leaning toward checking, maybe making a check/raise if we'd get sufficient value from it.

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If are Kings are clean...we have 12 outs...not nuts outs..but strong...Also, back door Str8 draw...I'm thinking 2 callers is plenty...even 1 would be tolerable.I don't like checking...as I feel much worse hands are going to contribute to the pot / or some would-be better hand that outdraws me, folds.

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I'll be the first to admit that I know you're sometimes supposed to bet or raise flush draws, but I'm not exactly sure of the reason why.My general understanding of it is that with an ace-high flush draw in position, the raise is a) for value, b) for a free card, and c) to add more money to a pot you're drawing at to nut all over.When this kind of situation comes up (i.e. non-nut flush draw in a non-button position) I usually end up betting for no other reason than I'd rather not be check/calling. Maybe the bet has value, maybe aggression can lead to a checked turn, I don't really know... but it works out okay for me, I guess.

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I have it memorized (j/k). Anyway, SSHE says k8s is a late position only call.
SSHE also says that its pre-flop guides are just guidelines. If you have confidence in your post-flop skills and you have a good read on the table, it's good to adjust your own personal preflop requirements.
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I have it memorized (j/k). Anyway, SSHE says k8s is a late position only call.
SSHE also says that its pre-flop guides are just guidelines. If you have confidence in your post-flop skills and you have a good read on the table, it's good to adjust your own personal preflop requirements.
Exactly - guidelines.The important thing here is to know when & why to 'stray from the path'.As TJ pointed out the EV delta for a fold/limp here is likely to be very small, probably bigger than he suggests but small none-the-less.What is critical though is the fact that you are making preflop decisions every hand and as Miller correctly points out in SSHE and on 2 + 2, you lose money in holdem by making small mistakes often as well as big mistakes less frequently.What really concerns me is that a few respected posters here are saying the post flop call is close enough and therefore good enough because its only one hand off on a chart...Miller hasn't spent all that time so you can pin a chart on the wall and play like a robot. He wants you to think for yourselves. So lets try it shall we.The OP suggests that the table is loose, but goes on to say that usually there are four others to a flop.For starters that puts our guidelines on the tight chart from Miller. You guys have seen the word loose and shut down the thought process there and then.So our guideline suggests that K8s is playable only from the blinds.Now we can see what factors apply to adjust from out starting point.Is the table passive or aggressive? The OP says passive so thats a step in the right direction because if this pot is raised playing K8s is definately a big mistake.So will the hand be raised? I don't know because every player still in the hand is to act after usIf it is raised will we get some equity from other players commited to the pot? No - because every player before us has folded.Think a bit about these 2 points a bit - its not just a case of 3 out and 6 to come. We have lost a huge amount of equity by having nobody commited to the pot at this stage.Will the field be large enough to justify calling here? Extremely unlikely. You almost need to guarentee 4/5 of the remaining players (excluding the BB) will come for the ride - without raising.What will our position be like post flop? Crap.There is nothing here to suggest loosening up our preflop standards for this hand, in fact for this hand we should actually be tightening our standardsAs I have said though, its not about playing K8s in MP1, its about thinking during our hands, so the reason I'm banging on about this is because we are either not thinking enough or not thinking about the right factors.
Just rreading the thread though, one would think the pre-flop play was the most material one, and I disagree.
In this hand Actuary the preflop call is undoubtedly a small mistake and because it will be a long time before you are dealt K8s in MP1 and its folded to you on a passive etc etc it is tempting to overlook it.However if we keep this mentality for all pre flop decisions and very soon we will have a VPIP of 25% and be wondering why we can't beat 2/4Playing the wrong hands preflop is the biggest mistake fish make, and we are better than them, yes?And Rise, you keep wanting one good reason to fold, well here is one:Limping is -EV
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I don't really like 3-betting the river as I think more often than not he's raising a boat/A high flush rather than just trip 9's or something. But I'm definately not folding the river eitherI think it's 8 most of the time, but most of the time isn't enough to three-bet heads up.

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