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lhe, not bet/fold..right? bet/call maybe 3-bet


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Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converterPreflop: Actuary is MP1 with Kc, 8c. 3 folds, BB checks.loose call here..passive tabel..usually..would get 4 more into pot...so pf call is light, I'd say...Flop: (4.50 SB) Tc, 2s, 9c (4 players)BB checks, Actuary bets, MP2 calls, CO calls, BB folds.Turn: (3.75 BB) 9d (3 players)Actuary checks, MP2 checks, CO bets, Actuary calls, MP2 calls.River: (6.75 BB) Jc (3 players)Actuary bets, Actuary calls.Final Pot: 10.75 BBWith pair on board, is it stil lworth chasing the flush...and I have to call the riase, right?

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The turn call is close (I'm not sure of the exact math, but with one more person still in hand I think it's so close to not really matter much?) but I think the hand looks good. I don't really like 3-betting the river as I think more often than not he's raising a boat/A high flush rather than just trip 9's or something. But I'm definately not folding the river either. IMO, nh.

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Dont like preflop call at all...everything else seems reasonable.
PF call isn't bad if table's been loose. Sometimes you make a PF call expecting everyone else to call and all of a sudden the table's tight for a hand. It sux but it happens. plus usually earlier position limpers encourage lots of other limpers...
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Dont like preflop call at all...everything else seems reasonable.
PF call isn't bad if table's been loose. Sometimes you make a PF call expecting everyone else to call and all of a sudden the table's tight for a hand. It sux but it happens. plus usually earlier position limpers encourage lots of other limpers...
True... thats why we play these type of hands in late position for a single bet once were sure that the limpers have already came. I DISAGREE with this preflop call from MP1 in a full game. Period.
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Dont like preflop call at all...everything else seems reasonable.
PF call isn't bad if table's been loose. Sometimes you make a PF call expecting everyone else to call and all of a sudden the table's tight for a hand. It sux but it happens. plus usually earlier position limpers encourage lots of other limpers...
True... thats why we play these type of hands in late position for a single bet once were sure that the limpers have already came. I DISAGREE with this preflop call from MP1 in a full game. Period.
I usually don't make it either, unless I've been running well, but I don't disagree with it.
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Looking at the hand now...what about just checking the flop? We have 2 players to act after us. If MP2 bets we check/raise, otherwise check/call? That's how I've been playing flush draws w/ overcards in smaller pots with several opponents, but once again I don't think I've been playing very good lately...

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I do because my post flop skills are no strong enuf to play these hands properly. This one wasn't too difficult...but normally I need about 5+ opponents to make okee-dokeee, imo.
Yes, and with position you know what your facing. The pot could've been pumped behind you and then your playing an extremely marginal hand OOP. I think this one is pretty clear.
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Yes, and with position you know what your facing. The pot could've been pumped behind you and then your playing an extremely marginal hand OOP. I think this one is pretty clear.
Not on a loose/passive table. If it was loose/aggressive, then sure. But on a loose/passive table there's nothing wrong with this.
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the thing is, in loose/passive games, you can limp 2-2 and A-2 suited under the gun.that's the idea... you can play a lot more profitable hands out of position because you can be fairly certain that it won't get raised behind you, or even if it does, that the pot will still be contested five-way or so.that's why open-limping with K-8 suited in MP1 here isn't as bad as some of you think it is. most of the time, almost the whole table limps behind him. sometimes, only one player limps, the small blind folds, and the big blind checks for a tiny pot. sometimes, only the button raises and it folds to him.but MOST of the time, the first scenario happens.think of it in percentages. just arbitrary numbers for example, 85% of the time, the first scenario happens, 10% of the time, the second scenario, and a tiny 5% of the time, the third scenario.so, it's still profitable to play it there if most of the time, the first scenario happens.it's a little more mathematical than that, of course (it has to do with the exact EVs of the hand in those different situations and the likelihood of each situation occuring), but in general, open-limping decent multiway hands out of position in loose/passive games isn't as bad as some people think it is.most of the time, it's a significantly +EV limp with good postflop skills. sometimes, the worst case scenario happens and you make at worst a decision that's barely -EV by a fraction of a small bet. so?the idea is that in the long run, this hand is profitable to play here, so you can take that risk of that dreaded scenario when most of the time, your hand will make money.make sense?aseem

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even on a loose/aggressive table, limping here isn't terrible.it HAS to be _loose_ though.in general, the more aggressive the table is, the looser it has to be to make speculative multiway hands profitable.aseem

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I agree with thebolbbad pf call.
Page 82 in SSHE if you don't want to believe me or Aseem. KQs-K9s...yes I realize you have K8s, but the only real difference there is that K9 makes one straight while K8 makes none (using both cards anyway). The call is fine, you need to stop being so hard on yourself.
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K :club: 9 :spade:you are so pessimistic :PRise: evenn more so..SSHE says its ok to play K9s in a tight game, so even being the first one in with K8s is not so bad..especailly with a raise unlikely....I still stand by my statemnt that I need to hit the flop..otherwise, I'm liable to goof.!

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I still stand by my statemnt that I need to hit the flop..otherwise, I'm liable to goof.!
Of course you need to hit the flop. Unless you think everyone is folding to a single bet...and I really think you need to be less down on yourself. We all play hands badly, no sense in doubting your skills too much. With just having read SSHE and having been given some good advice on lots of hands here, you have a good edge over most players.
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Page 82 in SSHE if you don't want to believe me or Aseem. KQs-K9s...yes I realize you have K8s, but the only real difference there is that K9 makes one straight while K8 makes none (using both cards anyway). The call is fine, you need to stop being so hard on yourself.
actually, thats a big difference, and the kicker is lower for when you hit a king and eights don't hold up as often as nines when you hit them.. Small Stakes holdem put K8s-K2s as a call in late position only. You already have 3 folders reducing the chance for the neccessary odds. If you had a couple limpers already, I might call in mp1 at a really loose/passive table.Anyway, its not a bad enough play to matter too much. I definately agree for 22 or A2s or other good multiway hands, thats very good advice from akishore, alot of people miss out on those hands in loose games.
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actually, thats a big difference, and the kicker is lower for when you hit a king and eights don't hold up as often as nines when you hit them.I definately agree for 22 or A2s or other good multiway hands, thats very good advice from akishore, alot of people miss out on those hands in loose games.
whether a pair of 8's will hold up less than a pair of 9's depends on the texture of the board and the action. On a board of A-Q-8-5-2 or A-Q-9-5-2 the pair of 8's and 9's will win the same amount of the time. In a kicker war the difference between an 8 and a 9 is very marginal. And even so, you're encouraging playing A2s from the same position? You're contradicting yourself. A 2 would never win a kicker war, and more people are playing bad Aces than bad Kings making it more likely your kicker will cost you a pot.
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You already have 3 folders reducing the chance for the neccessary odds. If you had a couple limpers already, I might call in mp1 at a really loose/passive table.
This is the most important point in the whole discussion.No-one else in the pot makes this a bad call.The holding and the position are both borderline.It's going to be a small -EV, but with 3 folds its as bad as it gets for limping
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You're contradicting yourself. A 2 would never win a kicker war, and more people are playing bad Aces than bad Kings making it more likely your kicker will cost you a pot.
yes, but A2s makes a straight. And A2s makes the highest pair rather than the second, and the nut flush rather than the second nut. It has alot more going for it in terms of holding up multiway.. I'd call with it UTG. As for kickers, having one card lower kicker gives 12 more hands combinations that dominate you. And just in general, flopping a pair of eights will hold up less than nines...statisically speaking. Its not that big of a difference, but combined with losing the straight possibility it all adds up, which is why its usually played differently than K9s. But, like I said, with 1 or 2 limpers already in I'd be up for a call. I think I'd fold here though. But I don't think it matters too much...<shrug>
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