starting hand question

[ControlFreak 0]

Ok .. 10 players at the table, you're on the Small Blind. Folds around to you and you have K5 off-suit. Do you Raise/Call/Fold?I had this discussion with a friend, and he said that you needed to fold there. That while heads-up you can look at Q7 as a "median" hand, you can't really think that way after 8 people have folded. After all, they probably all folded low cards.My reply was that plenty of those people could have folded a single high card with a low card (A3, even K5), so even if the Q7 was no longer the median, it wasn't far off, and was maybe Q9 or QT, so with K5 you still should raise or at least call and see a flop there.I'm not saying I'm right .. and the times I've limped with K5 I find that I wind up folding to any raise after a missed flop .. but I was wondering what the "correct" play was.ThanksCF

[Socrates 0]

What are the blinds, stack sizes, player profiles you table image? NO information makes it hard for someone to help you.

[RhinestoneCowboy 2]

Ok .. 10 players at the table, you're on the Small Blind. Folds around to you and you have K5 off-suit. Do you Raise/Call/Fold?I had this discussion with a friend, and he said that you needed to fold there. That while heads-up you can look at Q7 as a "median" hand, you can't really think that way after 8 people have folded. After all, they probably all folded low cards.My reply was that plenty of those people could have folded a single high card with a low card (A3, even K5), so even if the Q7 was no longer the median, it wasn't far off, and was maybe Q9 or QT, so with K5 you still should raise or at least call and see a flop there.I'm not saying I'm right .. and the times I've limped with K5 I find that I wind up folding to any raise after a missed flop .. but I was wondering what the "correct" play was.ThanksCF

Im probobly not correct, but I would put a 3x raise or so out there. If I get reraised, I probobly fold. If he calls I most likely make a continuation bet on the flop. Just my opinion..I'm no expert compared to some here in their own minds...

[Spademan 94]

Ok .. 10 players at the table, you're on the Small Blind. Folds around to you and you have K5 off-suit. Do you Raise/Call/Fold?I had this discussion with a friend, and he said that you needed to fold there. That while heads-up you can look at Q7 as a "median" hand, you can't really think that way after 8 people have folded. After all, they probably all folded low cards.My reply was that plenty of those people could have folded a single high card with a low card (A3, even K5), so even if the Q7 was no longer the median, it wasn't far off, and was maybe Q9 or QT, so with K5 you still should raise or at least call and see a flop there.I'm not saying I'm right .. and the times I've limped with K5 I find that I wind up folding to any raise after a missed flop .. but I was wondering what the "correct" play was.ThanksCF

Raise and open fold.

[lboarts 0]

If you raise to 3BBs, the big blind will fold more often than not. If you raise to 2 BBs, theyll call more often than not.

[krup24 0]

There is no way u fold here. I think calling or making a small raise 3x BB would be effective. Once again what r blinds and chip counts and reads. This all has a great impact on ur move here.

[ControlFreak 0]

What are the blinds, stack sizes, player profiles you table image? NO information makes it hard for someone to help you.

Feel free to answer each of those. Say it's in a ring-game .50/1.00. Say it's in a $20 SNG. In all situations, you probably have a table image as medium-tight/agressive.

[justblaze 0]

Ok .. 10 players at the table, you're on the Small Blind. Folds around to you and you have K5 off-suit. Do you Raise/Call/Fold?I had this discussion with a friend, and he said that you needed to fold there. That while heads-up you can look at Q7 as a "median" hand, you can't really think that way after 8 people have folded. After all, they probably all folded low cards.My reply was that plenty of those people could have folded a single high card with a low card (A3, even K5), so even if the Q7 was no longer the median, it wasn't far off, and was maybe Q9 or QT, so with K5 you still should raise or at least call and see a flop there.I'm not saying I'm right .. and the times I've limped with K5 I find that I wind up folding to any raise after a missed flop .. but I was wondering what the "correct" play was.ThanksCF

Raise and open fold.

[Smasharoo 0]

Just move in for 1000 BB.The odds of them having a hand to call with are miniscule, and when they do you're still not that much of a dog.If you have less than 1000 BB you should fold.

[ControlFreak 0]

Just move in for 1000 BB.The odds of them having a hand to call with are miniscule, and when they do you're still not that much of a dog.If you have less than 1000 BB you should fold.

Wow .. I think this is the one thread where I actually would have really wanted to hear your opinion Smash. Why not answer what you think is the right move. I'll give a better situation if that helps ...$20 SNG. 10 players still in, blinds are 30/60. The BB has only been involved in a few pots, and hasn't had to show cards yet. He's up to about 1600 from starting at 1500, and you're at 1200 and haven't shown any cards yet.I'm really looking for the math answer here though. Do the 8 people who folded impact what the median hand is? If so, to what degree?CF

[RhinestoneCowboy 2]

Just move in for 1000 BB.The odds of them having a hand to call with are miniscule, and when they do you're still not that much of a dog.If you have less than 1000 BB you should fold.

Take it as gospel.

[....Ian.... 0]

yea...i like raising herewhat does open fold mean?and smash...i find your more recent posts very funny and less dick-like.....bravo

[....Ian.... 0]

I'm really looking for the math answer here though. Do the 8 people who folded impact what the median hand is? If so, to what degree?CF

i think its imposible to know. they could all be pitching A6o and K2o or J10ono possible way to know

[ControlFreak 0]

Well .. Q7, also known as the "Computer Hand," is the median hand head's-up. So if you have better than Q7, the odds are that you have a better hand than your opponent.The real question is .. should you assume the same thing after 8 people have folded? Or do you have to think that more low cards were folded than high cards, and that would push up the odds of the other player having better than Q7. And if so, by how much?CF

[The Czar 0]

I agree with the majority. Raise 3x BB, continuation bet, then slow down if necessary. I believe Doyle Brunson addresses your math question in SS 1. I think he says if everyone has folded to him, he is less agressive because somebody has to have somethin'. Of course, I don't agree, but I'm down about $30 in my career and he's up a few.

[Kaedin 0]

from the strategy point of view:Raise the BB, put the question to him. Feel free to continuation bet after the flop. K-5 os is 54% against a random hand, make him prove he has better. (But don't go broke with it)from the math standpoint:Entirely impossible to answer imo. In early position I'm folding hands above median, such as AT through A2, KQ through K2, any queen other than AQ/QQ, same for Jacks... if they are folding in late position, its more likely that they are folding utter crap. But you can't assume that the BB has a better hand, and folding here is too weak.

[Smasharoo 0]

$20 SNG. 10 players still in, blinds are 30/60. The BB has only been involved in a few pots, and hasn't had to show cards yet. He's up to about 1600 from starting at 1500, and you're at 1200 and haven't shown any cards yet. Move in. Seriously.If he plays as you've described his range of calling hands there is tiny. He's likely to see most hands that he might consider calling with as coin-flips and just give it up. This is a fairly stanard play, really. Taking this postflop with a 3xBB raise is baindead. Don't give him the option of calling some hand you have no visability on and putting yourself in a position of making difficult decisions with no real read post flop.Moving in folds a large range of hands that are crushing you as opposed to having a smaler raise called by a litterally random hand that you have no clue about. I call a 3XBB raise there with nearly anything, most decent SnG players will, too. I call an all in with almost nothing if I'm in the position you describe.

[The Czar 0]

Do you guys all fold KQ in early position here like the previous poster? If so, maybe that's where I'm going wrong.

[SapphireTiger 0]

think about the hand in a different perspective.You're playing him heads up...not in a full ring game. Of course the fact that everyone folded to you will make the BB a little more suspicious if you raise, but you can just make adjustments around that. Dont' worry about if everyone else folded 'little cards' because the squeeze effect is hardly ever a significant factor.You don't fold here. K5 is too much of a hand heads up.thinking about it more, the situation is a bit different than heads up play because you are first to act post-flop...but i believe the concepts still apply.I disagree with Smash in the sense that moving in, you will only be called by a much better hand. why not put in a raise of 5-6x instead?

[Devilkin 0]

yea...i like raising herewhat does open fold mean?and smash...i find your more recent posts very funny and less dick-like.....bravo

For some reason, that last line made me spit coffee on my computer screen - BRAVO IAN!!!Dev

[Smasharoo 0]

I disagree with Smash in the sense that moving in, you will only be called by a much better hand. why not put in a raise of 5-6x instead?Because there really are very few good flops for your hand out of position. Sure, you have some fold equity with a 5XBB raise, but you have much, much more moving in. Taking this hand postflop will often put you in the position of having to make difficult decisions post flop. Moving in forces the BB to make a difficult decision. The more often you can put oppisition in the situation of making the harder decision, the better your RoI.Occasionally you'll get called and be out. That's poker. Most of the time, probably on the order of 90% or more if he's a typical SnG player, you win the blind. Some of the time he calls and you win and double up.I'm really surprised you guys don't see this play more often. I think of moving here as pretty standard.If you're on the button, the 5xBB raise makes a lot more sense.

[rog 0]

Call is absolutely out of the question. I'm torn between raise and fold. It's early and you dont need to be agro with crap hands, plus you're out of position. On the other hand, since you'll be on his right for the rest of the night, you're going to need to find out sooner or later if you can steal from him plus your hand has a chance heads up. Yeah..raise 3XBB, play smart after the flop. Although I agree with Smash's reasoning, this is a blind steal on your part. If he has a calling hand you're out of the SNG because you made a play for 1 BB. Let's see...if he calls with a monster, you lose 20 BB and your tournament life. If he folds, you win 1 BB. Not worth it.

[thebolb33 0]

KQ off in early pos is usually a fold. KQs I'd raise in early position. I'm not flat calling with that hand early, thats fo sho.

[myenemy 0]

I think moving in here is pretty dumb. At 30-60 blinds its certainly not worth risking all your chips to win T60 even when the BB can only call 6 or 7% of the time. Personally I am a good enough player that I can win often enough were gambling to win T60 is never worth it. The 7% (or more vs. a player like Smash who will call this play with "almost nothing") is 7% fewer times I give myself to win the tournament(SnG) which I believe I can do often.However if the BB is 10 - 15% of your total count then I think this is a good play most times. BTW T60 here is 2.5% of 1200.

[Smasharoo 0]

I think moving in here is pretty dumb. At 30-60 blinds its certainly not worth risking all your chips to win T60 even when the BB can only call 6 or 7% of the time.One, I think the odds of a call here are MUCH lower than that, two it sets you up for later plays with better hands where you want a call, three gap theory.Honestly, what's his range of calling hands here in your mind?I probbaly fold QQ there i his position. That's just me though. He can't see your cards, you know.