need help w/ nlhl cash game (long post)

[Evenflown 0]

I've been playing poker for about 6 months now, mostly online, but a friend I work with recently started holding NLHL cash games at his house, every night of the week.We play $20 buy in with up to 10 people on some nights, and at least three or four people are always a $100 deep or more every night, so there is a lot of money on the table every night, and the people I play with are literally ATM's. Just waiting to hand me their money.I think that playing online however, has ruined my live game. I've talked to a couple other people that I play poker with that also play online and live games and they agree that online low limit play makes you play scared because you see so many bad beats handed out and it's almost never right to make a move, and there is no tells so you can never get a read on a player when they are weak or strong.I understand that when you’re playing on PP's $25 NLHL tables the correct strategy is to play tighter than a virgin’s ass and sit around and wait for great hands, but I don't think this is the right way to play in these live loose, very loose, cash games.If I sit around and wait for just premium hands all night, I'm going to have a lot of nights where I don't make any money, and these players are so bad, bluff so much, want to see every card no matter how much it costs them, that I think I am loosing out on an opportunity to maximize my profits at these games.In this cash game I play in, people LOVE to bluff, with nothing, all the time. It has gotten me to lay down ALOT of hands when I was way ahead, and I'm getting sick of it.How can I play back at these people? I want to be as in control of the table as possible, and I'm usually not. Like I said, I've played a lot of online hands, so I'm scared to get in pots with out great hands, I'm scared to push with my top pair ace kicker on the flop when I think I'm ahead but someone comes over the top of my bet.There is also one other issue I want to discuss. Intuition and feelings while playing NLHL. The guy who runs the cash game, Kirk, is amazing. He constantly calls preflop and says aloud: "I know I'm behind right now, but I feel my cards coming and I'm going to serve you a bad beat." And he constantly cracks the hands he is behind. He says he plays purely on his intuition, when he feels it he goes with it, even when he knows he's behind, because he feels it coming. And I've been playing with him now, night after night after night, and he is constantly up, he is a winning player, not a loosing player. I was always taught to not call when you think your behind unless your getting the right odds, but he always goes on his feelings and he is always winning.What do some of you more experienced players have to say about his style of play? It's making me seriously question my own, because me makes a lot more than I do at these cash games playing loose, overly aggressive, and on his intuition than I do sitting here waiting for premium hands.I know that I am smarter and better then 99% of the players that I play with in this cash game, I understand so many things better than they do about poker, but I feel like I am not maximizing my profits here. Can you guys please help me? Thanks.

[strategy 4]

I think that playing online however, has ruined my live game. I've talked to a couple other people that I play poker with that also play online and live games and they agree that online low limit play makes you play scared because you see so many bad beats handed out and it's almost never right to make a move, and there is no tells so you can never get a read on a player when they are weak or strong.

Bad beats are not something you should be afraid of. Seek them out, it's a sign that you're in a good game. You would never have a bad beat if you always got your money in as a dog.

I understand that when you’re playing on PP's $25 NLHL tables the correct strategy is to play tighter than a virgin’s ass and sit around and wait for great hands, but I don't think this is the right way to play in these live loose, very loose, cash games.

No, it's pretty much the correct strategy, even in live, loose games. You might not walk away with all the money, but you'll consistently win. If nothing else, Internet poker is good practice for beating the juicy games.

If I sit around and wait for just premium hands all night, I'm going to have a lot of nights where I don't make any money, and these players are so bad, bluff so much, want to see every card no matter how much it costs them, that I think I am loosing out on an opportunity to maximize my profits at these games.

You're friends with everybody at these games, right? Home games are more about having fun than anything else. You will get frustrated and angry if you go in thinking everybody will play "correct" and that bad beats are an awful thing.

In this cash game I play in, people LOVE to bluff, with nothing, all the time. It has gotten me to lay down ALOT of hands when I was way ahead, and I'm getting sick of it.How can I play back at these people? I want to be as in control of the table as possible, and I'm usually not. Like I said, I've played a lot of online hands, so I'm scared to get in pots with out great hands, I'm scared to push with my top pair ace kicker on the flop when I think I'm ahead but someone comes over the top of my bet.

Don't bother playing back at them. Disregard anything you may have read in Super System. It's all about waiting for good hands and letting them bet into you. If it's as loose and they're as bad as you say, they won't even notice that you're setting traps for them every time you have a big hand.

There is also one other issue I want to discuss. Intuition and feelings while playing NLHL. The guy who runs the cash game, Kirk, is amazing. He constantly calls preflop and says aloud: "I know I'm behind right now, but I feel my cards coming and I'm going to serve you a bad beat." And he constantly cracks the hands he is behind. He says he plays purely on his intuition, when he feels it he goes with it, even when he knows he's behind, because he feels it coming. And I've been playing with him now, night after night after night, and he is constantly up, he is a winning player, not a loosing player. I was always taught to not call when you think your behind unless your getting the right odds, but he always goes on his feelings and he is always winning.

Poker isn't about feeling which card is going to come next. It's math. It's all math. He's probably just running really good right now. The winning player from night to night isn't necessarily the best player.

What do some of you more experienced players have to say about his style of play? It's making me seriously question my own, because me makes a lot more than I do at these cash games playing loose, overly aggressive, and on his intuition than I do sitting here waiting for premium hands.

I've tried both styles in my home game. For the longest time, I played like a maniac. Then I'd go from loose to tight and change it up constantly every night. Basically, no one has a clue what I'm holding when we're in a hand together. It's a complete surprise to them to see that I've picked up a monster, or that I had 64s and was chasing a straight on implied odds and it got there. The people in my game pay some attention. Yours probably do not, so just keep playing tight.

I know that I am smarter and better then 99% of the players that I play with in this cash game, I understand so many things better than they do about poker, but I feel like I am not maximizing my profits here. Can you guys please help me? Thanks.

You need to learn that there is only so much you can control in poker. Bad beats fall in the category of "things you cannot control." Do not change your game for fear of having someone suck out on you. It happens, and you should encourage them to try to do it to you. A guy who blows everybody out of the pot the second he has a big hand is just as bad as a loose player who chases every draw for any price. Play tight, trap when you've got unbeatable hands, and stay somewhat aggressive when you have good hands. It's boring, but it works.

[Evenflown 0]

In this cash game I play in' date=' people LOVE to bluff' date=' with nothing, all the time. It has gotten me to lay down ALOT of hands when I was way ahead, and I'm getting sick of it.How can I play back at these people? I want to be as in control of the table as possible, and I'm usually not. Like I said, I've played a lot of online hands, so I'm scared to get in pots with out great hands, I'm scared to push with my top pair ace kicker on the flop when I think I'm ahead but someone comes over the top of my bet.[/quote'']Don't bother playing back at them. Disregard anything you may have read in Super System. It's all about waiting for good hands and letting them bet into you. If it's as loose and they're as bad as you say, they won't even notice that you're setting traps for them every time you have a big hand.

You are right, I had aces almost back to back last night and the first time I trapped Kirk and doubled up off of him. The second time I was UG and I knew someone would raise so I limped in, cut off raised it to two on top of the .50 blind, Kirk raised it to $12 all day, and this was literally less than 10 minutes after I just showed aces, I do a little bit of acting to make myself look weak, and then I push all in on top, having them both covered. The first kid thinks about it for a second and then calls, and so does Kirk.Cut off turns over pp4's and Kirk turns over pp5's. I turn over my aces and they both say "I knew you had a high PP." Which is amazing, what more could I ask for than for people to call even when they know they are beat? Kid with the 4's took down the main pot, spiked a set on the turn, but I still won money from the side pot with Kirk.That's all fine and dandy when I do have monster hands, what I am saying is, it seems to me there has got to be a way to make money off their horrible play when I'm -not- getting aces. When I'm not seeing any pp's, or hitting monster flops.I've only been playing for six months. So maybe I'm wrong? I should just sit there and play only good hands and only push when I have a monster?

[strategy 4]

Cut off turns over pp4's and Kirk turns over pp5's. I turn over my aces and they both say "I knew you had a high PP." Which is amazing, what more could I ask for than for people to call even when they know they are beat?

People say that all the time. "Yep" when they call with QQ and you show AA, "I knew you had it." It makes me laugh every time, without fail. It's like they're trying to save face on their bad call by saying they knew it was bad.

That's all fine and dandy when I do have monster hands, what I am saying is, it seems to me there has got to be a way to make money off their horrible play when I'm -not- getting aces. When I'm not seeing any pp's, or hitting monster flops.I've only been playing for six months. So maybe I'm wrong? I should just sit there and play only good hands and only push when I have a monster?

It takes a lot of practice and you need to have a very good understanding of pot odds. I've experimented in my game before, and when I play every hand I am break-even or barely profitable. If we had bigger blinds relative to the stacks, it would be devastatingly effective. When you're in every pot, you get lots of good experience playing after the flop, but it gets expensive if you habitually take those hands too far.From what you've described, the preflop action gets pretty heavy even when nobody is holding a monster hand. That's a good sign that you just have to clam up and only play good hands.The power in being in there and playing a lot of pots is in the skill you use on the flop and later streets--knowing how often you're going to hit your draws with 65s when you get a good flop, deciding if your two pair is any good, etc. Trying that in this game would probably be very, very costly.