leaving tips for staff

[PokerDealer2005 0]

Mr. Demetriou..... my question to you is......would YOU leave anything if you had won 1st and 7.4 million?

[jack24bauer24 0]

i think all of these are pretty valid points, everyone.(but...)in my mind, tournament poker with prize pool % across-the-board tipping is very similar to what i experienced while bartending at a nice restaraunt that was often reserved for large parties.at my restaraunt, we enforced a mandatory 20% gratuity on the final bill of every large party that reserved our room downstairs. this room had a separate bar, separate waiters/bartenders (further to go to refill drinks, overfull trays to carry, further to get food, etc.), and a separate menu (different stuff to prepare in the kitchen). this put special burdens on each of the waiters, each of the bartenders, and each member of the kitchen, accordingly. this i understand to be at least analogous to, if not very similar to, the extra burdens put on dealers at the WSOP (deal faster! that other table is dealing more hands!, a small mistake might cost someone millions instead of a pot of 100 bucks, etc.). so yes, we had a mandatory 20% gratuity. however, the wait staff was generally very censored off if a large party didn't give a little extra (or a lot extra, depending on how well we felt we did our jobs). this "extra" varied greatly, from an extra 20 bucks each to sometimes even an extra 20-25% on top of the imposed gratuity. the parties which obviously had a lot more money usually gave the larger "extra" tips. this seemed, to me at least, pretty damn logical. these parties were extra work for us. these parties imposed a mandatory tip of 20%, which, at a restaraunt of relatively high caliber, is low, if anything (most nights, i averaged between 25-35% serving tables and/or making drinks). and yes, when i worked a party, my base pay was more. i got 2.90 to wait tables, 7.25 to bartend and wait tables, and 9.00 to only bartend or host parties. i'm getting a bit off track, but my point is this: tipping is just part of the game, tournament or otherwise. granted, things are different when you're not in the states/canada/wherever else, but it's part of western culture to share the wealth with anyone in the service industry. if someone came in and blew 500 dollars at dinner, i expected (well, expect may not quite be the right word, but yeah) a higher tip in terms of percentage than from someone who was obviously on a budget.so, you just won the WSOP? kick some back to those who made it happen, regardless of how much was taken out beforehand. that's just, quite simply, what we do here. there is a censored of pressure on the guys helping run a tournament for millions of dollars to do things exactly right. if they do a good job under harder-than-normal conditions, they deserve significantly extra compensation, just like the guys that play deserve a bigger prize for winning a big, huge, nasty, televised tournament.

I hope you tip the 16 year old kid working at McDonald's the next time you order a Big Mac meal.

[SoullesS 0]

However it would be interesting to hear from any dealers from the WSOP who may wish to divulge exactly how much they received for their work along with their bonus and whether it was paid to each one on an hours worked basis or merely for being a dealer at any time during the 6 weeks.At least accurate figures should give us a better indication as to how "fair" things were and how the staff pool was divided up.

I completely agree and I would be interested to know this as well. Harry, your points are valid and well explained. I just know that regardless of what the casino took out, when I make a good chunk of change by placing in the top few I always like to tip. It's just in my blood. I'm a lot more offended by most of the naysayers because they clearly are just being rude. They haven't (well most of them anyway) presented their case in a way other than to say "oh well, they signed on for this job.."That's just ignorant. They signed on for that job expecting to make the majority of their living on tips. I just returned from Foxwoods, where I was playing some WPT Sats and I was discussing this with many of the dealers and players alike... they all thought it was revolting. I agree with them 100%. (refering to Hachem leaving a $100 bill)

[HarryDemetriou 0]

Oh and by the way- not one person has posted a good argument for being cheap when you just earned 7.5 million dollars for essentialy 6 days of work. Do you know why this is? There is no good argument, all you can say is this is what I would do but it is painfully clear who would be an ass and who would not. There are truly two different types of people in this- one would do something because he or she could, and one type does not really think in those terms. They think only of self. Sad, really sad, and truly idefensible. It is what it is.

On the contrary - I believe the opposite is true.Not one person has posted a good argument as to why EXTRA should have been left for the staff.The indisputable facts behind this is that more than $1.2 million was left for the staff in the main event alone. By definition that is anything but cheap.An individual winner from the final table can choose to do whatever they want with their winnings - leave an extra tip or spend it on themselves family and friends. Choosing to do something other than leave an extra tip for staff does not automatically make them cheap.You have equated winning/making $7.5 million with not leaving a tip as being cheap which is not a fair conclusion to draw.If a businessman makes $10 billion in a year is he cheap if he doesn't leave the tax man an extra $1 million on top of his normal taxes?A stupid comparison but hopefully demonstrates the point.

[PokerDealer2005 0]

Yes that was a stupid comparison because it has no relevance to this. The point I was trying to make is that the 3% that was taken out was NOT a TIP FROM HIM, it was taken from everyones money. What HE HIMSELF LEFT was a ONE HUNDRED DOLLAR BILL and that makes him a low down dirty cheapskate.

[HarryDemetriou 0]

Yes that was a stupid comparison because it has no relevance to this. The point I was trying to make is that the 3% that was taken out was NOT a TIP FROM HIM, it was taken from everyones money. What HE HIMSELF LEFT was a ONE HUNDRED DOLLAR BILL and that makes him a low down dirty cheapskate.

The point was that the 2% taken out from all the players was the method chosen by the organizers to guarantee a tip for the staff that would in all liklihood (and as it happens reality) be a lot bigger than if left up to the players alone when cashing.As pointed out elsewhere had he left $150k (2%) of his winnings then collectively with all the other players at the final table the staff would have received MUCH LESS than by having 2% taken out of the whole pool.It is unreaonable and greedy (imho) to expect more than what was already left by the automatic deduction.Taking a percentage out of the prize pool makes the tipping responsibility a collective one rather than an individual one.To give a better analogy it's a bit like being in a union. You act collectively for the benefit of the masses regardless of your own individual beliefs.Tipping is now a shared responsibility and not an individual thing when it comes to poker tournaments and staff deductions from prize pools.Let's just agree to differ.

[PokerDealer2005 0]

You still haven't answered my question....would you have left anything if you won ?

[HarryDemetriou 0]

Mr. Demetriou..... my question to you is......would YOU leave anything if you had won 1st and 7.4 million?

Well as I'm from Europe and going to France next week let's put the head on the old chopping block or should I say guillotine.Specifically at The Rio I would have left nothing as I believe extra was not deserved or earned.Not wanting to create a bad image for myself, however, I would have given 2% of my prizemoney ($150k or very likely more) instead to a charity rather than left it for staff.As I have said before I believe that the shared responsibility of leaving a tip via the prizepool absolves me and other prize winners from having to leave extra and that is what this thread is all about.Leaving EXTRA for staff.The way many seem to be presenting their argument is like ignoring that anything has been left for the staff at all in the first place which is simply not fair.

[PokerDealer2005 0]

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions and giving your feedback. You're right the thread did stream away from my original, which was intended only on discussing the amount the winner left.

[pokerloser 0]

Yes that was a stupid comparison because it has no relevance to this. The point I was trying to make is that the 3% that was taken out was NOT a TIP FROM HIM, it was taken from everyones money. What HE HIMSELF LEFT was a ONE HUNDRED DOLLAR BILL and that makes him a low down dirty cheapskate.

Wasn't he himself an "everyone" you speak of? When we go to dinner and the waiter gets the tip from the table. he/she has no idea which person left it, nor do they care, just that they got it. They got 1.2 mil. enough said. period.

[jooka 0]

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions and giving your feedback. You're right the thread did stream away from my original, which was intended only on discussing the amount the winner left.

you know whats funny pokerdealer2005, no one has put up any proof what so ever that he did indeed leave $100, $50,000, $75000 or $0. You are a greedy bitch straight down to the bone. You have ranted and raved here about absolutely nothing you have any idea of what is true or false as if you deserve something for being a drop out from high school yet smart enough to know how to deal cards. Congratulations on your aecomplishments in life.

[pokerloser 0]

I have a hard time with the tipping if they have already pulled a nice chunk out for that purpose. I saw some comparisons to resteraunts, but how about this one. We go to a local place every other week with a large group, kids adults etc. 20+ people. They tell us right off that bat that 20% will be added to the bill to cover the tip. We understand that going in and accept it. What we don't do is leave more money for them when we leave. they took the 20% already? why should we? We told a very good waitress one day that if they didn't tack on the 20% she would probably get more out of us for a tip than 20%.

Maybe it's just me, but that's kind of a dick move. "Sorry, honey... you deserve more, but someone already took 20% out for you." Your hands weren't tied there. If the service was that excellent, then why not toss her a little something extra?

Good point...We did, and she talked her boss into removing the 20% and now she makes about a $100 bucks everytime we show up, instead of the 40-50 bucks she use to make. And we are happy to do it, she now requests working the nights we come in, and we have a great waitress who knows us and that she will be taken care of.

[HarryDemetriou 0]

I was just thinking (a VERY dangerous pastime) that perhaps this poll should have asked a different question?The whole argument seems to centre around what does and does not constitute an appropriate tip. (Whether the champ left anything is an indirect consequence to this question).If 10% of the prizepool was held back for the dealers then absolutely nobody is going to argue that the winner collecting $6.75 million should leave any additional tip as it is definitely accounted for.So what is a fair amount to be taken out of the pool for the dealers?As I had said previously I believe that 3% of the pool is excessive and that the right figure is 2%.Maybe the poll should say how much of the prizepool should be taken out for staff so that the staff can expect nothing additionally from the winners?Anyone care to post that poll question or provide an answer?

[checkymcfold 0]

I hope you tip the 16 year old kid working at McDonald's the next time you order a Big Mac meal.

i'm sure you won't believe me, but i very rarely eat fast food, and when i go inside, i do often leave tips (unless drunk, which honestly makes up most of my fast food ventures).

[Loismustdie 0]

Mr. Demetriou..... my question to you is......would YOU leave anything if you had won 1st and 7.4 million?

Well as I'm from Europe and going to France next week let's put the head on the old chopping block or should I say guillotine.Specifically at The Rio I would have left nothing as I believe extra was not deserved or earned.Not wanting to create a bad image for myself, however, I would have given 2% of my prizemoney ($150k or very likely more) instead to a charity rather than left it for staff.As I have said before I believe that the shared responsibility of leaving a tip via the prizepool absolves me and other prize winners from having to leave extra and that is what this thread is all about.Leaving EXTRA for staff.The way many seem to be presenting their argument is like ignoring that anything has been left for the staff at all in the first place which is simply not fair.

So basically what you are saying is that charity is about image. Hmmmm.... interesting. Generally when I give to charity no one knows. I like it that way- so, to create this image this information would have to be leaked, and then verified, you would have to play the aw shucks I would rather not talk about it routine. If your really that image oriented would it not be easier to just go sweet!! I'm up 7.5 for 6 days work!! Thank the lord, my lucky stars, the dealer that presided over the 9 that gave me trips when I needed it, thank whoever- Here is big ass tip!! I like your game Harry and I can see your point of view but if it was me in the winners circle I would be spreading the love, as Raymer did last year.

[Puddleglum5555 0]

I worked for 2 years in a hockey proshop, sharpening player's skates, etc. A skate sharpening cost 3.75, why didn't I get tipped 25 cents every time I did a pair of skates if I did a good job? I was making 7.50 an hour, and when you sharpen 80 pairs of skates a night it would add up.Why is it that some services are so called tipping jobs while some aren't? Ihave never tipped a dealer at a casino, I play low limits, 5-10 limit, 1-2 NL and I have no reason to tip a dealer, and I can't see myself ever doing so. It may be different if you were tipping the individual dealer and he/she did a specifically great job, but thats not the case, you tip the dealing staff as a whole, and I can't see myself doing that.As for dealers who say "I kept dealing him pot after pot and he never tipped me" does the dealer give a consolation dollar to a player who he keeps dealing awful cards to, or to someone who suffers bad beat after bad beat? I don't think so.

poker dealers keep their own tips jackass.please dont come to vegas and play, unless you want every dealer to hate your guts

[HarryDemetriou 0]

Actually I wouldn't want to make it public that I was giving something to charity as that is not the purpose of doing something like that.However I can see how you can conclude that from what I have written and the way in which it was written.That was not my intention. I'll have to word things a little more carefully in future.John Daly recently met a girl who went to college courtesy of a $30k donation he gave to her family when one of her parents was killed by lightening on a golf course as a spectator.I wasn't aware of this until the Open at St Andrews the other day.A lot of people give money to various good causes and the overwhelming majority do so without seeking any publicity for it.Personally I thik this is a better option than leaving extra money for the staff and that is what I was trying to say.It's just difficult to try and say this without it seeming like you want to get a pat on the back for doing so.Barry Greenstein has never wanted credit for his charitable donations but these things have a habit of coming out.

[Puddleglum5555 0]

I have been a poker dealer for 7 years and a player for 10 years.when I first read this thread I was upset that the winner left 100.00(supposedly) i did not deal at the rio.Now that I think about it, I guess tournaments that big, with the tip already taken out, the winner should not be looked down upon for not tipping. I would have tipped 1% regardless, but I have been in the industry for a long time.however, I feel strongly about players who do not tip in live cash games.While most of the players tip, there are a few who dont. this I do not understand.I have changed my mind on the tournament tipping, not saying nothing should be left, but understanding why nothing would be left.If I thought the staff was awful, then i would not tip them either.

[Loismustdie 0]

Actually I wouldn't want to make it public that I was giving something to charity as that is not the purpose of doing something like that.However I can see how you can conclude that from what I have written and the way in which it was written.That was not my intention. I'll have to word things a little more carefully in future.John Daly recently met a girl who went to college courtesy of a $30k donation he gave to her family when one of her parents was killed by lightening on a golf course as a spectator.I wasn't aware of this until the Open at St Andrews the other day.A lot of people give money to various good causes and the overwhelming majority do so without seeking any publicity for it.Personally I thik this is a better option than leaving extra money for the staff and that is what I was trying to say.It's just difficult to try and say this without it seeming like you want to get a pat on the back for doing so.Barry Greenstein has never wanted credit for his charitable donations but these things have a habit of coming out.

Understood- my thing is this and maybe I think differently because most of my play is online where tipping is not required. If I buy into a 100 dollar tourney I pay 100 to the prize pool and 10 to the site. Where does it go? I don't care, it goes where it goes. Maybe the 9400-600 should be thought of in that way to? Where does the 600 go? Who cares, that is what it cost to play in the years most prestigious event. I understand your point with regards to charity and by the way I have been a Daly fan since I was a kid- the man is incredibly gifted and has a heart of gold, there are alot of stories like the one you told. I guess the way I look at it is why be so specific? Why not just be generous for the sake of being generous? You have already explained why though and I respect your position. I got involved in this whole thing to tangle with the individuals who were basically saying to F the dealers with no real position, not to tangle with a point of view that makes some sense. Take care.

[HarryDemetriou 0]

I hope people do not misuderstand me.I'm not saying that players should definitely not tip even when something has been taken out of the prizepool.As such I will not castigate someone for doing so in the same way I will not criticise someone who doesn't leave a tip.It's down to the individual and them alone but personally I feel that the tip has been taken care of through the pool deductions when considering tournament play.However this deduction for staff thing is relatively new to tournaments and there are dangers associated with it.Firstly where will it all end? with a 4/5/6/7% deduction for staff?And then there is the question of how organizers distribute this money and amongst which staff not to mention whether or not they are actively suppressing salaries or using this deduction to lessen their wage liabilities.Food for thought?

[StonedViper 0]

Who decides who gets tipped and who doesn't anyway??I go to a restaurant and have a $25 meal, the waitress is nice and her service is good, i leave her $5, the other 5 tables she's taking care of leave her $5, she ends up making $25 for that hour. Didn't the guy in the kitchen make your meal?? isn't that a service?? He's still making $5 an hour.I'm not a cheap donkey, i tip and i usually tip well when i go out. Never played poker at a live casino so i can't talk about that.I don't know what a poker dealers base salary is, i hear alot of complaining from people that say they deal but nobody has mentioned what it is they start off with. One thing i can say is that if at the end of the day your not happy with what you brought home your always free to get off the dealer chair and have a seat on the other side of the table, i'm sure that some little mexican would be thrilled to deal cards for half minimum wage and not complain about tips, just like the maids in every vegas hotel...lolSome people are spoiled, where does it end?? Some guy is sitting at your table and leaves you $2 from every pot he wins, after a while that guy leaves and some other person sits down, this new person gives you $0.50 per pot they win, is person #2 a donkey cuz he ain't giving $2??

[Scanner313 0]

I'm up 7.5 for 6 days work!! Thank the lord, my lucky stars, the dealer that presided over the 9 that gave me trips when I needed it, thank whoever- Here is big ass tip!!

You know, every one of your arguments has been written with the same premise... That somehow the dealers have some influence over the cards you were dealt, and that they therefore have some right to be tipped for their part in your win.And I won't even get into the Karma thing.Sorry, but this is completely ridiculous! The dealer shuffled the cards and dealt them out in the manner they are mandated to. It's pure luck as to what cards you get and what cards fall on the table. Why do you keep claiming that the dealers are somehow responsible for that? Hell, I could have dealt the cards at the WSOP. It would have taken me a little longer to shuffle them, but otherwise I could have handled the job. It's not brain surgery we're talking about here. You know, speaking of brain surgery, here's a thought. You want to talk about tipping...This guy won $7.4 mil and you expect the dealers (who already got a nice chunk of that money) to get more from the guy. OK.Say you went into the hospital and you had a brain tumor that would kill you if not removed. The surgeon removes it and you fully recover, basically "winning" your life back because of this guy. You paid the hospital's going rate for the surgery, and I'm sure you're very greatful to the surgeon for providing you with this service. Do you tip him? If not, why? He just gave you something a whole lot more important that $7.5 mil. Do you not tip him because he's already making good money? Was the service you received not exceptional?And before you make the argument that dealers work for tips, think again to the very simple fact that 3% of the total prize pool (about $1.5 mil) was ALREADY taken out for them. So they ALREADY got their tip. What, should the dealers be paid on the same scale as a doctor, just because there was a lot of money involved in the event? That's ridiculous!And, if every person who played in the main event thought the dealers sucked, they still had no choice but to pony up that money for the dealers. Is that fair? They didn't get any say as to whether or not they felt the dealers were deserving of the tip.Here's a simple last question... Since nobody has verified any of the claims (as of yet) that he left only $100 we'll just assume it's true for now. In that case, if he was NOT happy with the service the staff and dealers at the Rio provided, would anyone be calling him a cheapskate for not leaving any ADDITIONAL tip for them? Do you know what his feelings were toward the staff? Until you do, don't assume this guy was a cheapskate.

[Scanner313 0]

so, you just won the WSOP? kick some back to those who made it happen, regardless of how much was taken out beforehand.

You're on the same kick as Lois. Why do you 2 think that the dealers somehow "made it happen" for you to win? I just don't get it. All the Rio did was host a tournament. The house took their cut, they withheld the extra for the staff. Why in the hell should the winner be expected to leave more?Think of it this way, $1.6 million dollars was the amount taken for the staff. Assume that no gratuity had been withheld for them. How much would you then expect the winner to tip? Should he leave $2 mil of the $7.5 he just won? Basically that's exactly what he's doing! The withholding cut into the amount he received, which would have been significantly higher if the tip wasn't mandatory, so in effect, he already paid the staff a huge tip.Of course, you guys probably won't see it that way. You'll just keep saying "Geez, the guy just won $7.5 million dollars, the least he can do is spread some of it around."I for one completely disagree, and I support Harry D.'s assesment and position on the subject. The tip has already been withheld, no more is warranted.

[NicksDad1970 0]

I think if most people think that the 2 or 3% was fair then....Harrah's should make a statement that they request no player leaves any additional tip besides the one that was taken out. That way a player doesn't feel like a shmuck for not leaving anything. Maybe make it mandatory for no tips to be accepted.

[HarryDemetriou 0]

I think if most people think that the 2 or 3% was fair then....Harrah's should make a statement that they request no player leaves any additional tip besides the one that was taken out. That way a player doesn't feel like a shmuck for not leaving anything. Maybe make it mandatory for no tips to be accepted.

It would also certainly help if they explained exactly how they distributed these deductions too.