tournament play i made

[Smasharoo 0]

I won't sit here and be told it was a bad play just cause you think so.Yes, you've clearly demonstrated that you will.Then, you'll be more concerned about your ego than playing your best poker and you'll explain how it was really a good play bluffinng off all of your chips with K high because you thought it was the best hand.It's a bad play. It's a bad play, it's a bad play.Just horrible.Keep making plays like it and you'll lose money.But at least your ego will be secure.That's clearly more important to you.

[Smasharoo 0]

Oh, and yes, on the flop..I knew King high was good. No seriously. I did. No, seriously, you didn't know until the cards were flipped over.If you did, you should have known the 4 was good and that he'd call.Your read sucked. If they didn't, you wouldn't be here talking how you lost a huge pot because of them.

[Jordan 1]

Yea. I'm the best player in the world cause I can do a slow bluff.Look out when you play me, I read you like a book and bluff a lot with king high.I guess I'll only bluff now with ace high.- Jordan

[Jordan 1]

Oh, and yes, on the flop..I knew King high was good. No seriously. I did. No, seriously, you didn't know until the cards were flipped over.If you did, you should have known the 4 was good and that he'd call.Your read sucked. If they didn't, you wouldn't be here talking how you lost a huge pot because of them.

Nah, I thought my read was right on. I was actually very suprised he called with his 4s...good read for him, and ballsy.He must have trapped me with that third pair. Damn.- Jordan

[Smasharoo 0]

Tell me again how it's a good idea to bluff all of your chips into the big stack late in a tournament.Particularly a loose big stack who's likely to call.Explain to me how that thoery makes you money long term.

[Smasharoo 0]

He must have trapped me with that third pair. Damn. No, it was just so blatently obvious to him that you qwere bluffing that it was an easy call.I would recomend you give playing online a shot. At least then you won't be so amazingly easy for him to read.Clearly, you're not goinng to be losing anything in terms of making reads if you play online.

[Smasharoo 0]

Do you even understand the math behind your play?Tell me how many times out of ten it has to work for it not to loose you money long term.

[Jordan 1]

Ok.Very simply.Going with my read on him.When I called the flop, I thought I would be telling him..."hey I picked up probably a pair of 9s here (since that would have been 2nd pair), or maybe even a weak 10 and you better check/fold that turn to my bet cuz you're beat"As i said, i don't make the play often...only when I think I can get the man to fold.The blinds were moving fast, I dont enjoy playing super tight late rounds and waiting for huge hands. I'm the aggressor cuz most others are scared.When he checked to me, I felt he was surrendering the pot. Bad read? Maybe. Will the majority fold third pair here? Yep.That's why I'll do it again when I'm confident. My "ego" was hurt cuz he called me. I expected him to have 9s at best, cuz I believed he would have check/raised me on the flop with 2nd or top pair cuz I would have bet the flop for sure. As I said in my first post, he had been playing position like that in every pot, and I wanted to send him a message he couldn't steal my blinds all the time. How the flop came and his actions lead me to believe (which I was correct at the time, that king high was good) even more so when he checked the 4.At that time I was 99% sure he surrendered and it was mine. His call was obviously, in my opinion, that 1% and I was out. Oh well.Long term? It doesn't. My play wasn't based on EV, it was situational, it was then, it is over. I only do that when I have a read. Never just because I think I can bluff everyone. I can't.That's why I believe it was the right play, and you can't understand. You weren't sitting there, you hadn't been playing with him, and you obviously don't play like me.I executed this same play 3 weeks ago with 7 high into a board of Q99. I check called the flop and lead on the turn and he folded AJ face up. Again, it just is something I do when I have a read, or a feeling.Sorry, other than that I can't explain it. But he got the better of me with the 4s...I still dont know if he was "trapping" with third pair, or just didn't believe me. I know he was embarrased to flip his cards though, lol...I guess I should have to, but I wasn't.- Jordan

[Smasharoo 0]

When he checked to me, I felt he was surrendering the pot. Bad read? Maybe. Will the majority fold third pair here? Yep. The majority folding isn't good enough.Tell me how often you need a fold here to make this play worth it.Then maybe you'll understand how bad it is.

[Jordan 1]

He must have trapped me with that third pair. Damn. No, it was just so blatently obvious to him that you qwere bluffing that it was an easy call.I would recomend you give playing online a shot. At least then you won't be so amazingly easy for him to read.Clearly, you're not goinng to be losing anything in terms of making reads if you play online.

Please stop antaganizing me and my overall game as you do not know me or have any idea about me. If I have done the same to you, I will stop as I am ignorant as well.I dislike online play compared to live play. Thanks.Perhaps I could have bet half my stack? I'm not sure though, then I would have been committed. All in was my only decision (22k was all i had, pot was about 20k) I think, or checking, but I wasn't giving up on the pot (obviously).- Jordan

[Jordan 1]

When he checked to me, I felt he was surrendering the pot. Bad read? Maybe. Will the majority fold third pair here? Yep. The majority folding isn't good enough.Tell me how often you need a fold here to make this play worth it.Then maybe you'll understand how bad it is.

This is the first time I've been called when making this play, other than the first month of poker I played when I had no understanding of the game. Perhaps that was why I was upset he had called as I hadn't been caught for a while.You aren't giving my posts any credit. So you must not give me any credit. So I think I'm done with you in relation to this post. Good luck.- Jordan

[tekn0wledg 0]

Yeh I don't think the arguement did anything for the sake of the information you were trying to gather.As for the live aspect of the game and that you had a read on him, I think if you had a read that he didn't have anything, then you did the right thing, but I just don't like risking your whole stack to make this move.I think the same can be achieved by not moving all-in, and probably works better 99% of the time.

[Smasharoo 0]

It's a simple question.How many times does it have to work out of ten for it to be profitable?Wait. Could it be that you have no idea?

[Jordan 1]

Profitable? I'll do it 10 times a tournament and never be called.Christ man. We play differently. I believe i bluffing. I bluff when I think someone is weak. Occasionally I'm caught. I'm not hyper aggressive. I pick spots. I picked a spot against the chip leader. He called me with third pair. Boo hoo. I'll do it again, I do it again, and again, and again, until I play with someone whom I read is strong. I can't give you how many times out of ten. I gave you one hand when it went wrong. Would you like a cash game example of when I made a guy fold top pair A9 to my 2nd pair of KQ for 75 on the river? I mean, sure he could have called and then I'm foiled...but I did it again, cuz of a read...a feeling...a belief in myself that if i bet, i can win.I dunno what else to say to you. I'm not trying to talk up my game, or down to yours, but this is really all I think I can say back to you.I consider myself an above average player with a passion for the game and learning. I just can't "learn" your way smash.Good day sir.- Jordan

[Smasharoo 0]

You'll never learn if you keep making bad plays and can't admit that they're bad.That's the whole point.Good players can.

[Jordan 1]

It's not a bad play cuz of the results. And it's not a good play cuz of the the results.I've made many poor plays, decisions actions at a table. I don't believe this to be one of them. Sorry.- Jordan

[looshle 6]

I just don't understand how you can be CONFIDENT with king high?The board was 10 - 9- 2- 4 so far. Here are a list of hands which you are currently behind with: Any AceAny King ( unless he somehow has k-5 or k-3)Any 10Any 2Any 4Any poket pairSo far thats 16 cards plus the pairs.Now lets say he has QJ, one of the few hands that you would be ahead ofOn the river you have to dodgeA KingA QueenA JackA 9That's 13 cards.How could be confident with king high????

[Jordan 1]

I had been at the table with him for a while...I knew he would lead the pot on the flop and slow down once i called him. I can't give you a 100% for sure reason, I just felt that my king high was good after the flop or I'd dump it right away.I should have gone over the top of him right away probably, but, to be sure of my "read" or "belief" I wanted to make sure he'd slow down on the turn.If he would have fired again, I would have folded as I couldn't have gotten him off the hand with a re-raise. His check indicated weakness, yet he still called with his pair of 4s. That's fine, but I know he didn't "trap" me with his 3rd pair. I don't really know how he called or why and I don't want to talk to him about it cause I think he'll realize he got "lucky" in the fact that I didn't have top or second pair. I plan to use this against him later.- Jordan

[Smasharoo 0]

That's fine, but I know he didn't "trap" me with his 3rd pair. I don't really know how he called or why and I don't want to talk to him about it cause I think he'll realize he got "lucky" in the fact that I didn't have top or second pair. I plan to use this against him later. I think he said "Well, this is obviously a silly BS bluff. I'm callin."

[looshle 6]

That's fine, but I know he didn't "trap" me with his 3rd pair. I don't really know how he called or why and I don't want to talk to him about it cause I think he'll realize he got "lucky" in the fact that I didn't have top or second pair. I plan to use this against him later.  I think he said "Well, this is obviously a silly BS bluff.  I'm callin."

Yea I don't understand how some people consider it reading their opponent or their opponent getting "lucky." I don't know how he got "lucky." You weren't playing against a machine, you were playing against anouther human being who is capable of making reads just as good as you are, and apparently a little better. You knew he was going to attack your blind, but he also must have known you were going to defend it no matter what and most likely even try to make a move. If you can be confident about K high, your opponent can't be confident about a pair of 4s? He's not calling your all in unless he thinks his pair of 4s are good. It seems to me like he read you like a book and it aggrevates the hell out of you.

[Smasharoo 0]

More importnatly he probably realized you wouldn't move all in with a good hand, but you'd try to be clever. You seem to be a clear victim of FPS in the extreme.

[Naismith 0]

First post here.It seems to me that you didn't really post looking for a critique of your play, but rather for people to tell you that you played it well.In my opinion, if you trust your read and are certain the check is coming on the turn (as you said), you need to make the re-raise after the flop. After all, what are you just calling there for if you're not hoping to get more chips out of him? You know he's checking on the turn, so in essence you're just giving him a free card for no benefit on your end.You have your read on him, take your pot. K4 is too delicate to allow free cards. If you flopped top pair with, say, 7-6 suited, you'd raise to protect that, wouldn't you? So if you're certain you flopped the top hand with a high card, you need to protect it.Peace,Jay

[Jordan 1]

First post here.It seems to me that you didn't really post looking for a critique of your play, but rather for people to tell you that you played it well.In my opinion, if you trust your read and are certain the check is coming on the turn (as you said), you need to make the re-raise after the flop. After all, what are you just calling there for if you're not hoping to get more chips out of him? You know he's checking on the turn, so in essence you're just giving him a free card for no benefit on your end.You have your read on him, take your pot. K4 is too delicate to allow free cards. If you flopped top pair with, say, 7-6 suited, you'd raise to protect that, wouldn't you? So if you're certain you flopped the top hand with a high card, you need to protect it.Peace,Jay

Yea, you're right. I should have re-raised preflop or on the flop. That is what I think I did "wrong" this hand, and believe it was "unlucky" for him to catch his 3rd pair on the turn, otherwise I would have won the pot no contest.Apparently he did "read" me as being weak. But I watched him put in his chips and let me tell you I've done the same kinda call before and I know the feeling. He wasn't super confident in his call(kinda that crying call), which is fine, but I know he was relieved to see me turn up K high.I just don't think many people will call with 3rd pair here(less that 90%), some even with second pair.Again, my bet was about the size of the pot, I don't think I could have pulled off another size bet. Maybe. But I just wouldn't like betting half, or quarter of my chips knowing they are going in on the river no matter what. If someone can offer another amount I could have bet, I'd like to hear it...I just don't know what the other play is there unless I too check and completely let the pot go which would have been the same as folding.Smash, no matter what you say, you cannot convince me this is a "bad" play cuz you are basing it on one result: I got called down.I don't base my plays on end results. You shouldn't, right? I make this play during tourneys when I feel others will fold, and the majority of the time they do. Guess you'll just have to take my word for it. Sorry this post got so out of control, but when you essentially attack my game with no thought to me other than you are right, I will respond.I said lucky because he essentially caught his 6 outer, 3 queens, 3 fours, on the turn and decided to call me with it. Maybe he is actually one of those guys who can't lay hands down, but say that turn would have been a brick (at least to him) there is no doubt he would have folded? Does that hypothetical situation make it the "right" play all of a sudden? No. Does that hypothetical situation make it the "wrong" play? No.No limit hold em', espicially when going with a read, or belief, isn't neccessarily about what is "right" and "wrong". It goes beyond that. That logic, or what have you is probably the same he had with calling me with third pair (although he is a newer player and probably is more of a caller now).Call my play "wrong" all you want, but I know you have to be willing to make these types of plays to be a winner in NLHE. My beliefs, and I'm sure smash will disagree. That's fine, perhaps he plays more straight up. - Jordan

[Jordan 1]

That's fine, but I know he didn't "trap" me with his 3rd pair. I don't really know how he called or why and I don't want to talk to him about it cause I think he'll realize he got "lucky" in the fact that I didn't have top or second pair. I plan to use this against him later. I think he said "Well, this is obviously a silly BS bluff. I'm callin."

Yea I don't understand how some people consider it reading their opponent or their opponent getting "lucky." I don't know how he got "lucky." You weren't playing against a machine, you were playing against anouther human being who is capable of making reads just as good as you are, and apparently a little better. You knew he was going to attack your blind, but he also must have known you were going to defend it no matter what and most likely even try to make a move. If you can be confident about K high, your opponent can't be confident about a pair of 4s? He's not calling your all in unless he thinks his pair of 4s are good. It seems to me like he read you like a book and it aggrevates the hell out of you.

Maybe you aren't reading all my posts. I did write that this was the first time I've been called down when pulling this play in a while and was frustrated. Espicially because I was in fact so confident he was folding.- Jordan

[dominiksdad 0]

Maybe you aren't reading all my posts. I did write that this was the first time I've been called down when pulling this play in a while and was frustrated. Espicially because I was in fact so confident he was folding.- Jordan

Maybe you aren't reading everyone else's posts.I'll try to spell it out for you as simply as possible.Mistake no 1 - You put in a bluff on the basis of your read on your opponent. Your read was wrong and therefore you made a bad play. Mistake no 2 - Your all-in bet screamed bluff and therefore your opponent got a read on you and called. Why are those two points so difficult for you to understand?Mistake no 3 - was when you posted on here trying to get people to tell you what a great player you were with your bad play.Mistake no4 - was when you started to take on Smash - many have tried, all have failed :wink: .