is poker gambling?

[justblaze 0]

Is it just me or does this feel like a 5 yr old is saying "Why" to everything we respond with.

god forbid you should have to think. what do you come here for? i come to engage my mind. this issue is relevant to poker (at least for those of us who are interested in the views of society). Interestingly, the response of most 5 year olds to questions like this would be similar to yours. That is, 'this question is stupid.' Its stupid because you cant easily think of the answer. Even the venerable smash has resorted to childlike belittling of the question itself, as it seems he cant provide a logical argument beyond 'it is because it is.'

Answer this question for me blaze:Do you place bets in poker?If you said yes to the above, please read below:Definition:Gambling (or betting) is any behavior involving the risk of money or valuables on the outcome of a game, contest, or other event in which the outcome of that activity is partially or totally dependent upon chance or on one's ability to do something.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BettingDoes that make things clearer?

wow, that was a lot tougher than calling me names, wasnt it? now, tell me why there is a social stigma attached to poker (via the negative connotations of the word gambling) which is not attached to, say, buying stocks (an activity which clearly falls under your definition of gambling).

[Royal_Tour 0]

Interestingly, the response of most 5 year olds to questions like this would be similar to yours. That is, 'this question is stupid.' Its stupid because you cant easily think of the answer. Even the venerable smash has resorted to childlike belittling of the question itself, as it seems he cant provide a logical argument beyond 'it is because it is.'No children question everything for no particular reason. Adults question things when there's a reason to.Which one are you doing?You are coming off as a complete fool here as opposed to the philosophical creative free thinker who challanges established ideas you apparently think you are.The word poseur leaps to mind immediately.

im questioning it for a reason. the reason is that some people in my life have come to the conclusion that i have a gambling problem, on the basis that a) i play a lot of poker and B) poker is gambling. The opinions of these people have a direct effect on my life. You have, instead of engaging in friendly hypothetical debate, decided to resort to calling me such names as 'complete fool, poseur, and moron'. I could be a real dick, like you are, but i think ill blame it on your bipolar disorder, and be the bigger man.

Well why wouldnt u tell us right off the bat, that u meant it in the social sense. rather then the legal sense.In this case, you can debate this for ever, and still not convince certain people.With all said and done, a poker pro, who knows his odds, and knows his strategy can still lose money. And can be a losing player,If you flip a coin 50/50 it will be heads, or tails. correct?but this doesnt mean that if you flip it 1 million times, that it wont always be heads for that 1 million flips. It is possible for it to always land on heads a million times in a row. NOw tha odds of that or retarded,, but still possible.

[shpaget 0]

Interestingly, the response of most 5 year olds to questions like this would be similar to yours. That is, 'this question is stupid.' Its stupid because you cant easily think of the answer. Even the venerable smash has resorted to childlike belittling of the question itself, as it seems he cant provide a logical argument beyond 'it is because it is.'No children question everything for no particular reason. Adults question things when there's a reason to.Which one are you doing?You are coming off as a complete fool here as opposed to the philosophical creative free thinker who challanges established ideas you apparently think you are.The word poseur leaps to mind immediately.

im questioning it for a reason. the reason is that some people in my life have come to the conclusion that i have a gambling problem, on the basis that a) i play a lot of poker and B) poker is gambling. The opinions of these people have a direct effect on my life. You have, instead of engaging in friendly hypothetical debate, decided to resort to calling me such names as 'complete fool, poseur, and moron'. I could be a real dick, like you are, but i think ill blame it on your bipolar disorder, and be the bigger man.

Does your play affect your family life or your financial position? Do you see casino dealers more than your spouse/kids/parents/friends? Is your rent late, but your ring game on time?Could you be displaying the first signs of denial of having a gambling problem?

[kindofblu 0]

Justblaze:I'm confused on what your getting at...Are you talking about the definition of gambling in the legal sense?Are you talking about gambling as a social stigma with no regard to legality?Are you just talking about the word in relation to Webster's?Each argument is different and would be easier if we stopped jumping from one to the other.

im talking about gambling as a social stigma with no regard to legality. sorry, i should have clarified.

Ok, cool, that makes the argument a little more clear.You will always find contradictions when arguing social norms. A technical argument will never persuaded someone to change a social value (the alcohol=legal--marijauna=illegal debate is a great example).Education, business, investments...one can make a strong social policy argument for each and I think this leads to their social value. Poker, on the other hand, is lacking in this respect.The argument aside, I don't think poker should possess that stigma. But I can see the other side's point of view of valuing some forms of gambling over poker.

[acesfullmike 0]

Blaze, There was a post by a kid that had just gone to college and quit his part time job to play online poker. His dad got all kinds of pissed at him until he pulled out the spreadsheet, showed his avr. BB/hr win rate. Did some math and showed probable variances and responsible bankroll management. His risk of going broke was tiny and he was making more by playing then he was at his minimum wage job. His dad finally relented and accepted that it wasnt a risk like gambling connotes, but a grind it out job. You wont be able to change everyone's mind, but if you can prove to the people that you care about that it isn't a simple coinflip, they may come around. Long term poker is not gambling, short term hell yes it is. in the short term i am getting pot odds to hit that nut flush draw and am gambling that it comes up on this hand. after about 1000 of these draws with correct odds to play, i am no longer gambling, i am using superior play and mathmatics to profit.

[Smasharoo 0]

im questioning it for a reason. the reason is that some people in my life have come to the conclusion that i have a gambling problem, on the basis that a) i play a lot of poker and B) poker is gambling. The opinions of these people have a direct effect on my life.You have, instead of engaging in friendly hypothetical debate, decided to resort to calling me such names as 'complete fool, poseur, and moron'. I could be a real dick, like you are, but i think ill blame it on your bipolar disorder, and be the bigger man.Being bi-polar doesn't make me smarter than you.Why not deal with the issue of having a gamblig problem instead of playing stupid word game so you can say "Poker's not gambling so it's impossible for me to have a gambling problem because I play poker!"You're like someone who's accused of being an alcholoic arguing if Beer counts as alcholol because it's not whiskey.If you're a losing player and you keep playing poker and people think it's a problem for you, it probably is.It's certainly inarguable that many poker players have gambling promblems and play poker for the action, not for the money.

[goldenteemaster 0]

As gambling is defined thus far as risking money on a bet, but what if there's no risk? For example:You have AK of spades. Flop is AAQs. Any bet here is gambling, there are hands that can beat you.Turn brings a J of spades. Again any bet here must be considered gambling by the standard definition.River then brings you the 10 of spades...nice for you :wink: Is any bet here really gambling? You can't lose so if you're not risking money it can't be gambling right?

[nutonflop 0]

As gambling is defined thus far as risking money on a bet, but what if there's no risk? For example:You have AK of spades. Flop is AAQs. Any bet here is gambling, there are hands that can beat you.Turn brings a J of spades. Again any bet here must be considered gambling by the standard definition.River then brings you the 10 of spades...nice for you :wink: Is any bet here really gambling? You can't lose so if you're not risking money it can't be gambling right?

Bania: Mmm. This soup is great.Jerry: Yeah, it's very good. (reluctantly)Bania: I told you Mendy’s had the best pea soup. The best Jerry, thebest. Are you enjoying it?Jerry: Yeah. I’m having a wonderful time. (it's obvious he isn't)Bania: Wait till you try the swordfish. You know Jerry, I wasthinking. For our next meal, do you think we should come here ... orshould we go someplace else? You know it has it's pros and cons. On theone hand, here, you're guaranteed a great meal. On the other hand --Jerry: (Interrupting Bania) Yeah, yeah I know. This would be good, butit would be the same. But if we go some place else, it would bedifferent, but it might not be as good. It's a gamble. I get it.PUTTING VALUE ON EXPECTED OUTCOME = GAMBLING. BOTTOM LINE

[Royal_Tour 0]

Is it just me or does this feel like a 5 yr old is saying "Why" to everything we respond with.

god forbid you should have to think. what do you come here for? i come to engage my mind. this issue is relevant to poker (at least for those of us who are interested in the views of society). Interestingly, the response of most 5 year olds to questions like this would be similar to yours. That is, 'this question is stupid.' Its stupid because you cant easily think of the answer. Even the venerable smash has resorted to childlike belittling of the question itself, as it seems he cant provide a logical argument beyond 'it is because it is.'

Answer this question for me blaze:Do you place bets in poker?If you said yes to the above, please read below:Definition:Gambling (or betting) is any behavior involving the risk of money or valuables on the outcome of a game, contest, or other event in which the outcome of that activity is partially or totally dependent upon chance or on one's ability to do something.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BettingDoes that make things clearer?

wow, that was a lot tougher than calling me names, wasnt it? now, tell me why there is a social stigma attached to poker (via the negative connotations of the word gambling) which is not attached to, say, buying stocks (an activity which clearly falls under your definition of gambling).

Ok. Blaze. If you baught stocks in microsoft years and years ago, because you were on the ball when it came to technology, you would be a rich man today. And thus that was not a gamble.If you read poker books, and learned strategy, and played thousands and thousands of hands, and could pick up on tells, this still doesnt mean that you investing your money into the WSOP, or any ring games would render you a rich man.

[Governator 54]

wow, that was a lot tougher than calling me names, wasnt it? now, tell me why there is a social stigma attached to poker (via the negative connotations of the word gambling) which is not attached to, say, buying stocks (an activity which clearly falls under your definition of gambling).

Alright... I'm understanding what you are atleast trying to get to. You too were being fairly vague with your reponses.While I agree purchasing stock has a lot of risk & probably could be classified as gambling to a certain extent - it is much different then playing cards (I own a business and understand the risks involved).Gambling with cards has a lot more variance then the stock market because face the facts a lot of has to do with luck. You are here because you are likely a fan of Daniel, a professional poker player who has lost hundreds of thousands of dollars this year due to variance and lack of focus (arguable).I believe poker has built a bad reputation for gambling because so many players have had disasterous outcomes & stories.

[Smasharoo 0]

Blaze, why did people come to this conclusion?ARe you stuck some cash or something, or are they Christian nujobs or along those lines of ebing bothered by it even if you're winning?

[Jelly-Filled Ace 1]

im questioning it for a reason. the reason is that some people in my life have come to the conclusion that i have a gambling problem, on the basis that a) i play a lot of poker and B) poker is gambling. The opinions of these people have a direct effect on my life. You have, instead of engaging in friendly hypothetical debate, decided to resort to calling me such names as 'complete fool, poseur, and moron'. I could be a real dick, like you are, but i think ill blame it on your bipolar disorder, and be the bigger man.

So do you have a gambling problem ?? obviously these people that are accusing you have more info about your life than the forum members do.your call to forum is to define - or in this case - sway you into believing you don't have a problem by winning an agruement over definition. if this is your attempt to convince yourself you don't have a problem with gambling, then you're holding an AA meeting at a bar and discussing soberity over some drinks.you're on a classic denial run.

[pokepoke1967 0]

I'm going to place the over/under on this thread at 9 pages.

[justblaze 0]

ugh. this is why i didnt want to divulge the reason for asking the question. I am a winning poker player. hundreds of thousands of pokertracker hand histories will prove this just fine. so will my neteller balance. Do i play a lot of poker? yes. Do i enjoy it? yes. If this gives me a gambling problem, then i guess i have one. I have led an interesting (although short) life. I definitely did have a gambling problem. I would make a ton of money playing poker, and either go way too high in limits and blow it, or blow it playing table games. I also was involved in many illicit activities which made me a lot of money (which i have wasted). I have learned from my experiences. I play with an extremely large bankroll now relative to my limits. I dont play table games. I dont sell drugs. I have set a lot of rules and guidelines for myself about playing conditions. For the last year i have been a consistent winner, and am constantly learning more and more about the game. I had to take a year off from school this year to work and get my priorities straight. I think it did me a lot of good. My mother (the person in question) is a very morally strict person. She never drank, she never smoked, she barely had friends in high school. She has spent her whole life working extremely hard, and now is a well-compensated corporate litigation attorney. She works 12 hour days. She has no friends. She never goes out. She is constantly angry at others. I dont want her life. I have tried to explain concepts like variance, expectation, risk of ruin, and bankroll management to her. I have also tried to explain the influence of skill on the long term results of poker. She doesnt care. to her, its all bullshit. Gambling is wrong. Its an addiction. End of story. The money i have made this year from working my 9-5 job this year doesnt cover what is needed for school. I had a lot of money management problems in the past (none of which were poker related - i was living a lifestyle i could not afford), and spent a lot of this year clearing debts. I cant take student loans (parents make too much). The money ive made from poker this year is what is paying the coming years tuition. If i cant play poker, i wont be able to afford to live while im in school (well, i could, but come april id be fucked for the next year). If i play poker, i may not be able to live at home (which of course would render me unable to pay for school as i would be forced to start paying rent). So, thanks, everyone, for calling me stupid, a moron, a poseur, or calling the question irrelevant or meaningless. This question, for me, has severe implications both philosophically and materially. I guess i posed it to the wrong people.

[Royal_Tour 0]

Dont try to make us feel bad because your a child of successful parents with plenty of money, and a great roof over your head.Poker is a privelage, not a right, and while you live at home and go to school, perhaps you should consider not playing, And notify your mom of your recent decisions, and perhaps ask for financial aid in the meantime through your parents.Life isnt hard, your just being a brat. I'm finished school, and had to bust my balls every summer, and work while in school., Poker was trhe last thing on my mind

[Smasharoo 0]

I guess i posed it to the wrong people.You didn't ask a question, you just wanted affirmation.Get a job. You're mother's paying for all of your expenses. When you get good enough to make enough money not to rely on her, then you can have this debate. Untill then, she wins.

[Governator 54]

I feel bad for you but could you not get a full time summer job like the rest of us folks did to cover your tutition? I worked at a grocery store for 2 summers, my gf worked a mall to cover hers.

[justblaze 0]

Dont try to make us feel bad because your a child of successful parents with plenty of money, and a great roof over your head.Poker is a privelage, not a right, and while you live at home and go to school, perhaps you should consider not playing, And notify your mom of your recent decisions, and perhaps ask for financial aid in the meantime through your parents.Life isnt hard, your just being a brat. I'm finished school, and had to bust my balls every summer, and work while in school., Poker was trhe last thing on my mind

im not trying to make anyone feel bad. i didnt want to divulge the reason for asking the question. i avoided until the last instance, where i was being told i had a gambling problem. and money isnt the key to happiness. It does happen to be the key to education though.

[justblaze 0]

I guess i posed it to the wrong people.You didn't ask a question, you just wanted affirmation.Get a job. You're mother's paying for all of your expenses. When you get good enough to make enough money not to rely on her, then you can have this debate. Untill then, she wins.

hahahaha. I have a job. Ive been working 9-5, ,monday-friday, for the last 9 months. My mother doesnt pay for anything. She provides a roof, and meals. Im not ungrateful for that, but its not like im sitting at home scratching my ass saying 'mom, can i have a couple grand?'.

[justblaze 0]

I feel bad for you but could you not get a full time summer job like the rest of us folks did to cover your tutition? I worked at a grocery store for 2 summers, my gf worked a mall to cover hers.

IM NOT ASKING FOR PITY. I have been working full time for the whole year. I made a lot of mistakes earlier in life, and i spent this year paying for them. School is a damn expensive thing. Its not only tuition. Its books, its computer, its transportation, its food. fuck, i never should have divulged so much about my situation.

[krup24 0]

Blaze,If u work a 9-5 er M-F, you should be able to afford your own place. Get the f out and live on ur own. You don't need someone telling you whats morally acceptable. My girlfriend tells me all the time I have a problem which I believe I do, but I enjoy poker, sports betting etc. Don't let someone else dictate how you live your life. Poker is gambling my friends but life is the biggest gamble of all.

[Governator 54]

I don't really care about dipping into your life story too deep but you could always put school on hold for a year to get your financials straightened out & then finish school the following year. I have a close friend who had to do that when we were in college and it worked out well for him.

[Royal_Tour 0]

I hate to do this blazeBut u made me, with your comment about spending money trying to live a life you couldnt afford, especially with Lawyers as parents.No offence, but 3 years ago.. which did u fall under??????

[justblaze 0]

Blaze,If u work a 9-5 er M-F, you should be able to afford your own place. Get the f out and live on ur own. You don't need someone telling you whats morally acceptable. My girlfriend tells me all the time I have a problem which I believe I do, but I enjoy poker, sports betting etc. Don't let someone else dictate how you live your life. Poker is gambling my friends but life is the biggest gamble of all.

i could, but then i couldnt go to school. cant afford both, especially considering id have to give up the 9-5 to attend class. Its a messed up situation, i appreciate all the advice. However, this is why i didnt want to explain all this stuff in the beginning. theres way too many issues to explain here, and im not sure i want to. I guess Smash was right, i was looking for moral affirmation about poker. I didnt get it. Im going to have to reconcile myself with that, or stop playing.

[jayboogie 0]

Justblaze, I know what you mean and I think a lot of us have the same or similar situation. Poker is gambling, anytime you wager money in order to win money, your gambling. The thing is some people are better gamblers than others, that is they know when to quit, know when to keep playing long sessions when the conditions are right. That is part of being a good gambler, putting yourself in profitable situations in the poker game. By definition, poker I would classify as gambling. It is however different than other forms of gambling, because the decisions you make matter whereas other forms of gambling like roulette and etc, your decisions don't matter over the long run, because the House has the edge and the odds will swing in their favour over time.Having said this I know exactly of your situation, because I went through something similar. I don't think any parent is going to want their kid to be playing poker, why would they? All you can do is keep playing is that is what you want to do, and also generate a profit from it. I guess if your making money over the longrun, maybe your family, friends will come around and possibly accept it in a way. That is kind of what happened with me, I've been successful at it and they've come around a bit on it. I still have a lotta ppl thinking I'm a gambling addict and telling me to quit before I lose everything I've won. I guess you can kind of expect ppl to think this way when they don't understand the game. My advice is to stop feeling like you have to justify your actions to your family and friends. As long as you know what your doing and feel fine with what your doing, that's good enough. Explaining poker concepts to somebody who doesn't understand them is pointless, they'll never understand nor try to.Also, I totally hear you on that lavish lifestyle. I don't know how much money I've blown and wasted since I've played poker. Money loses it's worth, you don't realize it's still hard work until you go through a huge downswing where nothing seems to go right. I'm trying to be much tighter with my money these days and saving it as much as I can. I guess you put money in the pockets of a 20 year old, you kind of expect them to go nuts. Money management is really really important though and it's probably the thing I need to work on the most.