perfect information quiz! (experts only)

[plowking37 0]

Player 1 and Player 2 have $2000 in chips.Pot Size: $100Player 1: 10 - 7 of diamondsPlayer 2: 9 of clubs, 2 of diamondsFlop: 9 of diamonds, 8 of clubs, 3 of diamondsWin/Loss Percentages: Player 1: 60.2%, Player 2: 39.8%Both players can see each others hands and any subsequent plays by Player 1 will be mathematically perfect.From the perspective of Player 2 in a No Limit Texas Hold’em game:Questions1. If Player 1 checks, Player 2 should… (a) Check(B) Bet 2. If Player 1 bets $100, Player 2 should…(a) Call(B) Fold© Raise the pot(d) Raise all in3. If Player 1 bets $400, Player 2 should…(a) Call(B) Fold© Raise the pot(d) Raise all in4. If Player 1 bets $600, Player 2 should… (a) Call (B) Fold © Raise the pot (d) Raise all in5. If Player 1 bets $800, Player 2 should…(a) Call(B) Fold© Raise the pot(d) Raise all in6. If Player 1 bets $1000, Player 2 should…(a) Call(B) Fold© Raise all in7. If Player 2 bets all in ($2000), Player 2 should…(a) Call(B) FoldBonus: Which Player is expected to make more money in each of the 7 situations?Hard8. Which of these 6 situations is most profitable for Player 2?(a)1 (B) 2 © 3 (d) 4 (e) 5 (f) 6 (g) 79. What is the largest bet that Player 2 should call?10. What ranges of called bets are profitable for both players?[ Hint: Calculate the amount at which Player 1 becomes pot committed ]Expert: What is the value of the called bet on the flop where both players expected to win the same amount? Full solutions and proofs will be posted in 1 week. Good Luck.Can you answer this quiz daniel?? (p.s. i'm looking for a job in the poker industry and i have lots of ideas and other quizes)plowking37@hotmail.com

[Bertuzzi 0]

Wow..... this is odd to say the least but I wouldn't call this an expert quiz. I am also confused as to why you took the time to do this. Anyways I am bored so I figure I will play.First off why can they see eachothers hole cards?? I don't know what kinda poker you play but you usually protect your hand from the sight of you opponent(s). :)1. If Player 1 checks, Player 2 should… (a) Check(B) Bet (A) is the answer. You can see his hole cards, yes your ahead right now but he is a favourite to win. Do you really think you can get him off the pot? Right now if I was player 2 I would be beggin for them to burn the deck. I am gonna get to the river as cheap as possible.2. If Player 1 bets $100, Player 2 should… (a) Call (B) Fold © Raise the pot (d) Raise all in (B) He should fold, Player one just bet the pot. Since the pot is $100 I assume they only have $50 each in. I would cut my losses and not take the chance of being out drawn and costing me more money. Reasoning: If player one misses on the turn, player 2 is now a favourite to win but player one might make a very large bet on the turn, lets say $800 I am not willing to commit to this pot, therefore I have no business calling a bet more than $50 on the flop.3. If Player 1 bets $400, Player 2 should… (a) Call (B) Fold © Raise the pot (d) Raise all in (B) Same as above player 1 is now over betting the pot, cut your losses.4. If Player 1 bets $600, Player 2 should… (a) Call (B) Fold © Raise the pot (d) Raise all in (B) Same as above player 1 is now over betting the pot, cut your losses.5. If Player 1 bets $800, Player 2 should… (a) Call (B) Fold © Raise the pot (d) Raise all in (B) Same as above player 1 is now over betting the pot, cut your losses.6. If Player 1 bets $1000, Player 2 should… (a) Call (B) Fold © Raise all in (B) Same as above player 1 is now over betting the pot, cut your losses.7. If Player 2 bets all in ($2000), Player 2 should… (a) Call (B) Fold Player 1 or player 2??? question was not worded properly.Altough if I were either player and I only had $50 in the pot I would not call with either hand for a $100 pot for my whole tourney life. Player 1 can easily miss, you must remember he/she is still drawing, and player 2 can easily be out-drawn on this hand and lose. Lets say player one checks and player 2 moves all-in for $2000. Wow what a wicked draw how can I let this go? Well its just not worth it for the money. If you had a made hand like a straight, then for sure, you call. Sometimes YES you must go for the gamble, but you still have lots of chips, assuming blinds are 25-50. If player 1 were short stacked I would push all in on that draw hope for a call and hope for the best.8. Which of these 6 situations is most profitable for Player 2? (a)1 (B) 2 © 3 (d) 4 (e) 5 (f) 6 (g) 7Player 2 shouldn't be worried about profit he should be worried about making it out on top. His hand is so very vulnerable right now. Player 1 can hit 17 cards to win not 18 beacause he knows the 2 of diamons is dead. Then if the turn card holds a 7 his outs just turned to 20. If I were player 2 I would be hoping to get to the river as cheap as possible, and see if my hand holds up.9. What is the largest bet that Player 2 should call? Personally if I were player 2 I would call nothing more than $50 bet on the flop. I just don't see it as being worth more. This is just personal opinion. Since I can see his hole cards I would be so disgusted by his monster draw I would want to get the hell away from this hand. Get all my money in on a better hand.

[plowking37 0]

Correction for Question #7. 7. If Player 1 bets all in ($2000), Player 2 should…(a) Call(B) FoldThanks for the reply Bertuzzi. You've got the right idea in some cases. You got 4/7 right. To give you something to think about, the answer to question 8 is actually © $400. Meaning also that the right answer is to call the bet of $400 for question 3. 8. © Because it is the only bet value of the ones listed where Player 1 actually loses money in the long run by making this bet and this bet has a higher expected profit for Player 2 than any of the other bets.With both players playing the hand correctly from this point on, Player 1 is actually expected to lose money on the hand by betting $400 despite having a 60-40 advantage after the flop.It is difficult to answer these questions by speculation alone, and you need to get out a pen and paper and make some calculations to find your Expected Profits (or expected value, whatever you want to call it). Good LuckP.S. i have mathmatical proofs for these questions, so there is definately a clear right and wrong answer for each question.

[Crusher 0]

I'm curious to see your proofs. I am not good in math, so it may be no surprise that I can't figure this out. My thought is that the percentages of 60.2% (Player 1) to 39.8% (Player 2) mean that Player 2 will win roughly 4 out of every 10 times or 1 out of every 2.5 times. With the cards offering 1:2.5 odds, the pot must offer better odds for Player 2 to call.With only $100 in the pot, I'm not seeing how Player 2 can make money on any of the bets. For instance, if Player 1 bets $100, then Player 2 must risk $100 to win the $200 in the pot. This is pot odds of on 2:1, well below the 1:2.5 odds the cards are offering.With $400, what you say is the most profitable, it is similar, Player 2 must bet $400 to win the $500 in the pot which is 1.25:1. Again, I'm not seeing the pot odds to justify a call.Where am I going wrong?

[Crusher 0]

Sorry--told you I'm bad at math. The cards are giving roughly 1 in 1.5 that player 2 will make his hand, not 1 in 2.5 as in my original post.

[gregdon8 0]

I will take a stab at this without looking to any previous replies.'I am using basic math here so I do not know i fi took the question as far as it was meant to be taken...1. A2. A3. A4. B5. B6. B7. B8. C9. 40010. Player 1, any bet greater than 400 Player 2 . any bet smaller than 401I said that the third scenario is most profitable because the flop call he is getting laid5/4, while being 3/2 dog. Plus if player 1 misses the turn, player 2 should move in and given that player 1 is playing by the book math should not call. The reason player 1 is favored 3/2 is because they are giving him the turn and river to make his hand, but if he misses the turn now player 2 is the favorite and by making a big bet should win already what is in the pot... I could be wrong these are logical guessesInteresting part is that they can see each others cards, therefore whenever player 1 misses his card on the turn player 2 should subsequently move in and alter the pot odds in his favorHow wrong am I ?

[plowking37 0]

you're very close actually. The key to the question is that player 1 has the 60-40 advantage, but that assumes that he gets to see both turn and river cards. The chances of him hitting on the turn is only 38%, and then if he misses, then there's a 39% chance to hit the river. So because of this, player 2 is actually able to extract value by having a bet on the flop, and then moving all in on the turn if the draw misses, or folding if it hits. I'll wait a few more replies hopefully before i post the full solutions. thanks for taking the time to do the quiz...... peace

[Catamo 0]

1. A2. A3. A4. A5. B6. B7. B8. 49. Somewhere around 600-700... i dont have a calculator.10. 800-1000.

[JaysonWeber 0]

This is pretty clear...For answers 1-9 You should probobly OpenFarrel from the start..And for number 10 you should show your hand, muck it and if you are in the WSOP drop the F-Bomb for a good 10 minutes penatly.

[Big-Ern777 0]

Shouldn't we change the title to "Pot Odds Quiz! (For people understanding high school math only)"

[DeadMoney6545 0]

Good Work JaysonWay to take a completely credible and interesting threadand trashing it.(sw) I also would like my 2 minutes backSideNote:What are pot odds and implied odds??They apply to poker??Poker involves math??God i guess im really behind the eightball....And the F-Bomb u were looking forFuckFuckFuck

[Visnovsky 0]

Answers1) b, Bet2) c, raise the pot3) a, call4) b, fold5) b, fold6) b, fold7) b, foldBonus: Player 2 expects to make more money in situations 1, 2, and 3. Player expects to make more money in situations 4, 5, 6 and 7.Hard8) c, situation 39) Of the options 400, otherwise the actual answer is around $415.10) I am a little confused by what you mean. Player 1 becomes pot comitted by betting more than $415 on the flop and getting called.If you mean player 1 bets and player 2 calls on the flop, then if player 1bets up to about $170 both players have a postive expectation. This assumes whoever is ahead pushes on the turn.Expert) Not sureI really liked this problem and it made me really think about drawing hands that are dominant postflop.

[smk67 0]

So I have seen a few responses, but here is my analysis:Player one has 17 current live outs. He will make his hand, which player one would be drawing dead to, on the turn 37.8% of the time (17/45). If player one were short-stacked, player two is always correct to call an all in bet so long as the pot odds are better than 3-2 (player two's odds of winning with 2 cards). Since player one in this case is not short stacked, player two is still correct to call in all cases where he is getting better than 3-2, he is also correct to call when he is getting better than 1.65-1 pot odds. Things can be slighly more complicated when player one misses one of his outs on the turn, where a 7 hits giving him 2 extra outs, or where a 9 or 2 hit taking away the overcard out to player 1. neglecting that information would tell us that player two should move all in on the turn when player one misses, as long as he can make the pot odds greater than 1.65-1 (technically slightly higher because 17/44... but I am lazy).So here is an equation using simple algebra:The pot will contain on the turn:pot = 100 + bet + callbet=call=xso,pot=100 + 2xPlayer two going all in is for the amount:2000-xSo,2000-x + 100 +2x = turnpotturnpot/2000-x < 1.65 (if so, force fold)Therefore, x=528.So my answers +bonus in terms of EV of player 2 (which is simply the odds player one misses, times the pot):1) Check, $622) call, $1863) call, $5584) fold, $0 5) fold $06) fold, $07) fold, $0Bonus: Player two makes more in each case, other than 4-7 of course.8) c9) About $528 (give or take $10)10) Hmmm, does not exist if this is either heads up or a SB vs BB without antes from other players. Overall, they will each contribute half to the pot. So for one to profit means the other must lose, hence they both can't profit. However, they can both have positive expected value (which does not lead to net profit), simply less net loss than something of less EV. But they both have zero net EV at the point the pot odds are 1.5-1 or 3-2:(100+x)/x=1.5, x=200So player 2 can always call up to $200 if it meant seeing both the turn and river card.PS. Awesome quiz, thanks plow king!

[plowking37 0]

Thank you to everyone who took the time to look at my quiz. Here are the answers that i've come up with, which should be accurate. If anyone has a different proof or sees an error in my calculations or line of thought, i would be interested to see an alternative method.Solutions[ Hint: Player 1 becomes pot committed (will call any size bet if he does not hit on the turn) if he calls a bet greater than $415 on the flop. ]After the turn card comes up, if Player 1 hits one of his many draws, he will raise all in making Player 2 fold and win whatever money is in the pot on the turn. If Player 1 misses his draws, Player two will raise all in since he is now the favourite to win, and player one will call or fold depending on whether he is pot committed by that point.1. (a) Because any amount that Player 2 bets, Player 1 can re-raise all in resulting in a less profitable situation than had he checked. Bonus: Player 22. (a) Because any amount that Player 2 raises, Player 1 can re-raise all in resulting in a less profitable situation than had he called. Calling and seeing the turn is more profitable than folding. Bonus: Player 23. (a) Because any amount that Player 2 raises, Player 1 can re-raise all in resulting in a less profitable situation than had he called. Calling and seeing the turn is more profitable than folding. Bonus: Player 24. (a) Because any amount that Player 2 raises, Player 1 can re-raise all in resulting in a less profitable situation than had he called. Calling and seeing the turn is more profitable than folding. Bonus: Player 2 5. (a) Because any amount that Player 2 raises, Player 1 can re-raise all in resulting in a less profitable situation than had he called. Calling and seeing the turn is more profitable than folding. If Player 1 hits one of his draws, Player 2 will fold to an inevitable bet on the turn, but if Player 1 misses, Player 2 can raise all in, resulting in a call because Player 1 is pot committed. Bonus: Player 16. (B) Because the bet on the flop is so large, Player 2 will lose a lot if Player 1 hits on the turn, and because Player 1 is pot committed, Player 2 is unable to extract very much value if Player 1 misses on the turn since Player 1 will call the remainder of his chips to see the river. Bonus: Player 17. (B) Because Player 2’s winning percentage is lower than Player 1’s, Player 2 loses value on the hand if calling an all in bet since he is not given the opportunity to protect his money if a draw hits, and cannot extract value if it doesn’t. Bonus: Player 18. © Because it is the only bet value of the ones listed where Player 1 actually loses money in the long run by making this bet and this bet has a higher expected profit for Player 2 than any of the other bets.9. $85010. $0 - $154 and $585 – 850Expert: $717ProofPlayer 1 has a 17/45 chance to hit on the turn, and if it misses, a 17/44 chance to hit on the river.How to calculate when Player 1 becomes pot committed. [ 100 + 2b + (2000 – B) ] 17/44 – [ (2000 – B) 27/44 ] = 0(2100 + B) 17/44 – (54000/44 – 27b/44) = 0-18300/44 + b = 0b = 415.9Expected Profits for Player 2:If b < 416EP = 28/45 (100 + B) – 17b/45EP = 2800/45 + 28b/45 – 17b/45EP = 62.2 + 11b/45If b > 41617/45  (-B)28/45 17/44 ( – 2000) 27/44 ( + 2100)EP = 28/45 [27/44 (2100) – 17/44(2000)] – 17b/45EP = 321 – 17b/45Expected Profits for Player 1:If b < 416EP = 17/45 (100 + B) – 28b/45EP = 1700/45 + 17b/45 – 28b/45EP = 37.7 – 11b/45If b > 41617/45  (100 + B)28/45 17/44 ( + 2100) 27/44 ( – 2000)EP = 17/45 (100 + B) – 28/45 [ 17/44 (2100) – 27/44 (2000) ]EP = 1700/45 +17b/45 – 28/45 (415.9)EP = 17b/45 – 221I've taken the formulas for the Expected Profit of each player and graphed the results so the expected profits for each player can be compared. I can't post the graphs, but you can graph them yourself using the EP formula's given which is the clearest way to see the solutions to this quiz.P.S. If anyone knows of a job in the poker industry or publication that might be intersted in quizes like this please send me an e-mail. plowking37@hotmail.com

[kaisersoze12 0]

9-2 and 10-7 are playable from any position as long as they are sooooooted.

[dmuoio 0]

Heres a thought. Do you really think that you are going to have this much time at a poker table to figure out all of this math. I agree with evryone else that it is not hard math, just time consuming. You don't see many people with a slide ruls and abacus at a poker table. So basically your quiz is useless. No credible poker publication would waste there time with something like this because it is just not practical for someone to be allowed this much time to figure out the correct exact odds at a table. Why is player 2 playing 9/2 off anyway.D

[Guest XXEddie]

this is the dumbest poker quiz everIf youre gonna make an "expert only" quiz(which I bet you only put that there to make yourself fell better) why not make it on something that will acually happen!!!!!1!!one!one11!!one!!!!!1two players will never be able to see both sets of hole cards so practiing when you can is pointlessgood day sir

[pwoblo 0]

i always wondered how many people actually understand pot odds. Of the FCP'ers it seems to be a small percentage.And just because some can't understand the quiz/concepts doesn't mean that they are worthless. I'm sure people have heard pro's estimate a range of hands, so let's say you were 90% sure he was on a big draw (like on this quiz) and the other 10% of the time he had you drawing very slim with a set or 2 pair or maybe an overpair.Of course you probably can't be 90% sure that he is on a draw, but the exact percentage is arbitrary. Now the cards are facedown and it's "poker.".... So have you reached your pot odds epiphany or are you still mad at the quiz?

[Wallacer 0]

I don't want to bash this quiz because I can understand the lessons it's trying to teach. At first glance my thoughts were "well I'm behind and I know that, why the hell don't I just fold?". It took me a minute to realise that I'm getting a good price in the first few questions. Thanks for showing me the light. On the other hand, I know basic pot odds pretty well, but if you take more than a few seconds to make your decision at the poker table in a situation where you don't have the nuts, you're going to get killed! I see someone calculating in their head at the table, I pounce. 90% of the time I go ahead and make a huge raise and then they calculate again for however long, come to the conclusion that the pot odds are now off by 2% and fold. I guess my point is that it's all fine and dandy to be able to make these calculations, and they can teach practical lessons, but it really doesn't mean you are a better poker player than the guy who isn't good at math but can totally take advantage of the fact that you are a math whiz. Just something to think about-Wallacer

[pwoblo 0]

I think you are completely right that if you took a math whiz with little experience against a pro who didn't know his multiplication tables. The pro would win every time. But being good at math can't possibly be bad for you poker skills. Also, the questions on this quiz weren't that hard to calculate. People keep complaining that it is impossible to take all the time to do the quiz in your head. That's why I don't think people are very good at conceptualizing pot odds, because this quiz doesn't take much time at all if you understand the concept.You just say, about what fraction of the cards left in the deck are good for me? Oh. A little less than two thirds. Can I protect my hand if i hit? If yes, then call. If no, then you think to yourself that I win 40% of the time, so I can expect to win about .4 x 4100 = 840 of the pot if we get all the money in after I hit. Is he betting less than 840? Not exact, but pretty close. And very easy. .4 x 4100 = 840 and I'm done. You'd be silly not to make calculations.Good players make estimates on a range of hands all the time, and you don't have to be obvious when doing so. I'm not going to count my fingers or say numbers under my breath if i want to remember how much is in the pot and how far behind i am if the guy has an overpair. [/i]

[DeuceGambino 0]

Been a while since I've studied this, so this might be off...The goal of the following is to outplay Player 1 and win what money is in the pot uncontested.Player 2 must never bet/raise the flop because Player 1 will move-in.To win the pot uncontested, Player 2 has the opportunity to move-in should a safe or relatively safe (a 7 only gives Player 1 2 extra outs) card (28 cards total) come on the turn.With unlimited chips (and a determined amount bet by Player 1 on the flop), a call by Player 2 will always be a profitable play because he has the 62% immediate advantage; however, because they are limited to $2000 in chips and also because Player 1 plays mathetically perfectly, a call is only justified for Player 2 if it is possible for him to force Player 1 to fold the turn.Player 1 will fold the turn if a safe card comes for Player 2 and also if he isn't laid the right price (pot odds) to call.Let x represent the amount that Player 1 bets on the flop.First figure out the pot odds to where Player 1 will call the turn.% to hit the riverIf a safe card falls on the turn, but not a 7: 1-(44-17)/44If a 7 falls: 1-(44-19)/44y = odds of 7 coming on the turn = 1-(45-3)/44Weighted % to hit the river (=z)[1-(44-17)/44]*(1-y)+[1-(44-19)/44]*yConverted to pot odds1/z-1 = 1.568:1What amount (x) can Player 2 call that would automatically give Player 1 1.568:1 pot odds?(all-in bet + amount already in the pot)/(amount to call) = pot odds[(2000-50-x)+(100+2x)]/(2000-50-x) >= 1.568x >= 393 (actually 392.43 if these two players are using Internet poker software for their match)Player 2 should call up to $392, and he would prefer to see the turn card as cheap as possible. There are amounts above $392 that are slightly profitable for Player 2, but why gamble everything now when he can outplay Player 1 in the long-run by being able to make decisions like these? Let him have the $50 you already have in the pot if he bets more than $392. You still have $1950 to work with.