10 10 under the gun

[alf13 0]

I also like how some of you are working with the premise that YOU HAVE TO PLAY THIS TT...YOU JUST GOT TOO!!!!!!!OMG...I got TT...I ain't never folding this thing!...Come hell or high water....I am playing this hand!!!!

yes, you have to play this hand in this position...if you don't believe this, come sit at my tables please.would you be doing the same with AK suited? limp, push back if someone raises? or is that a good time to fold UTG with a premium hand too?

It's not about if you play the hand...it's about how you play the hand.....and you don't play it by going bonkers with it to the point where you put all your chips in preflop with an equal stack when you are the 2nd stack at the table in a MTT....That is just well...stupid.Have you heard the term?: "Find a better spot?"

[Pupsta 0]

ok...how bout this...you limp and it's folded to the bb, who checks. flop Q74. he bets out 1/2 pot....your move?

let's do the math here. the pot is now $4000 plus antes as opposed to $6500 plus a reraise all in of what, $15500 more?in this situation, you're telling me an aggressive player who didn't raise from the BB leads out another ~$3000 for a pot of $9000? he doesn't have a queen. i am all in, smelling a rat. he knows i have him covered and unless he had 7-4 i'm a favorite to win.i think i see your point, though. without a raise preflop i have no information about his holdings. he could have anything, including q-7, q-4, or 7-4.

he turns up Q2 and you lose...or what not....don't limp that and allow a bb special to take you down. raise to get information, call the allin.you're behind 4 hands, two of which a raise doesn't make the most sense, and at least a coinflip (with a slight edge in that flip) getting >2:1.

somebody else posted about TT being a "playback hand" and that's the way i think of it. UTG at a final table...i suppose another good thing about raising UTG is that if you have a certain table image more people are likely to get out of your way. i also wonder if a smaller raise wouldn't be the way to go. he raised between 3.5x-3.25x BB which basically begged someone shortstacked with overcards like AJ to steal or look for a race. maybe a smaller raise from early position would have been better.

smaller raise gets the same result, just makes calling the allin tougher. the stacks are small enough that you want to encourage someone to push at you because they're more than likely to be *at best* flipping, but pushing a marginal hand with a shortstack is quite possible. if you're willing to call a shorter stack's allin, no reason not to raise, and 3xbb is appropriate imo.

[cgrohman 0]

Raising is generally the right play UTG with 1010 at a final table. Whether or not I would call depends largely on what I think of the player who pushed in, what hands he ha sshown etc.

[DB10-2 0]

I also like how some of you are working with the premise that YOU HAVE TO PLAY THIS TT...YOU JUST GOT TOO!!!!!!!OMG...I got TT...I ain't never folding this thing!...Come hell or high water....I am playing this hand!!!!

yes, you have to play this hand in this position...if you don't believe this, come sit at my tables please.would you be doing the same with AK suited? limp, push back if someone raises? or is that a good time to fold UTG with a premium hand too?

UTG is almost as far out of position as you can get on a 10-handed table. this is also different live from online. in a live game i can look to my left and discern how many people intend to keep their hands. online i have no idea. i can look to my right and see the BB see his AJ and gather his chips to push them in in a live game; online i have no idea. TT just isn't that great.

[Pupsta 0]

I also like how some of you are working with the premise that YOU HAVE TO PLAY THIS TT...YOU JUST GOT TOO!!!!!!!OMG...I got TT...I ain't never folding this thing!...Come hell or high water....I am playing this hand!!!!

yes, you have to play this hand in this position...if you don't believe this, come sit at my tables please.would you be doing the same with AK suited? limp, push back if someone raises? or is that a good time to fold UTG with a premium hand too?

It's not about if you play the hand...it's about how you play the hand.....and you don't play it by going bonkers with it to the point where you put all your chips in preflop with an equal stack when you are the 2nd stack at the table in a MTT....That is just well...stupid.Have you heard the term?: "Find a better spot?"

yet you're advocating moves that will result in one of three things: 1) bleed your chips away by limp/folding (if that's what you elect to do to a button raise)2) push back at the button raiser, which he'll most likely call because you're giving him the odds to call, which leaves you in the same position (with less information mind you, because a button raise in this position includes AA and KK, where a button push when you raise most likely does not). 3) leave you with a good but vulnerable hand either out of position to other limpers, or with position against (most likely) two random holdings, leaving you to make an uninformed decision if either of them leads out on a flop with an overcard, and if all unders, you still run the risk of being up against 2pr to these random hands, which raising would have eliminated.

[nutonflop 0]

I also like how some of you are working with the premise that YOU HAVE TO PLAY THIS TT...YOU JUST GOT TOO!!!!!!!OMG...I got TT...I ain't never folding this thing!...Come hell or high water....I am playing this hand!!!!

yes, you have to play this hand in this position...if you don't believe this, come sit at my tables please.would you be doing the same with AK suited? limp, push back if someone raises? or is that a good time to fold UTG with a premium hand too?

It's not about if you play the hand...it's about how you play the hand.....and you don't play it by going bonkers with it to the point where you put all your chips in preflop with an equal stack when you are the 2nd stack at the table in a MTT....That is just well...stupid.Have you heard the term?: "Find a better spot?"

yet you're advocating moves that will result in one of three things: 1) bleed your chips away by limp/folding (if that's what you elect to do to a button raise)2) push back at the button raiser, which he'll most likely call because you're giving him the odds to call, which leaves you in the same position (with less information mind you, because a button raise in this position includes AA and KK, where a button push when you raise most likely does not). 3) leave you with a good but vulnerable hand either out of position to other limpers, or with position against (most likely) two random holdings, leaving you to make an uninformed decision if either of them leads out on a flop with an overcard, and if all unders, you still run the risk of being up against 2pr to these random hands, which raising would have eliminated.

i cannot believe how many people just don't fold.

[Pupsta 0]

I also like how some of you are working with the premise that YOU HAVE TO PLAY THIS TT...YOU JUST GOT TOO!!!!!!!OMG...I got TT...I ain't never folding this thing!...Come hell or high water....I am playing this hand!!!!

yes, you have to play this hand in this position...if you don't believe this, come sit at my tables please.would you be doing the same with AK suited? limp, push back if someone raises? or is that a good time to fold UTG with a premium hand too?

UTG is almost as far out of position as you can get on a 10-handed table. this is also different live from online. in a live game i can look to my left and discern how many people intend to keep their hands. online i have no idea. i can look to my right and see the BB see his AJ and gather his chips to push them in in a live game; online i have no idea. TT just isn't that great.

another reason why limping is a bad idea: it's giving average hands the odds to limp into the pot, where you'll be playing against them out of position.

[Pupsta 0]

I also like how some of you are working with the premise that YOU HAVE TO PLAY THIS TT...YOU JUST GOT TOO!!!!!!!OMG...I got TT...I ain't never folding this thing!...Come hell or high water....I am playing this hand!!!!

yes, you have to play this hand in this position...if you don't believe this, come sit at my tables please.would you be doing the same with AK suited? limp, push back if someone raises? or is that a good time to fold UTG with a premium hand too?

It's not about if you play the hand...it's about how you play the hand.....and you don't play it by going bonkers with it to the point where you put all your chips in preflop with an equal stack when you are the 2nd stack at the table in a MTT....That is just well...stupid.Have you heard the term?: "Find a better spot?"

yet you're advocating moves that will result in one of three things: 1) bleed your chips away by limp/folding (if that's what you elect to do to a button raise)2) push back at the button raiser, which he'll most likely call because you're giving him the odds to call, which leaves you in the same position (with less information mind you, because a button raise in this position includes AA and KK, where a button push when you raise most likely does not). 3) leave you with a good but vulnerable hand either out of position to other limpers, or with position against (most likely) two random holdings, leaving you to make an uninformed decision if either of them leads out on a flop with an overcard, and if all unders, you still run the risk of being up against 2pr to these random hands, which raising would have eliminated.

i cannot believe how many people just don't fold.

so you're advocating a fold here? why? you're not guaranteed to pick up quality hands like this for the rest of the tourney, so you have to make moves when you can when you DO pick these hands up. fold if you're fine with 5th.

[DB10-2 0]

another reason why limping is a bad idea: it's giving average hands the odds to limp into the pot, where you'll be playing against them out of position.

i simply don't consider TT to be a premium hand; it's clear you do. TT from UTG is even less valuable. maybe i'm a weak player, but my preference here is to limp, then accept that if the flop is bad for me i've lost nothing more than a BB. if someone shortstacked moves in preflop, i would have to think about it for a bit, considering their earlier play and their position, before calling.

[nutonflop 0]

I also like how some of you are working with the premise that YOU HAVE TO PLAY THIS TT...YOU JUST GOT TOO!!!!!!!OMG...I got TT...I ain't never folding this thing!...Come hell or high water....I am playing this hand!!!!

yes, you have to play this hand in this position...if you don't believe this, come sit at my tables please.would you be doing the same with AK suited? limp, push back if someone raises? or is that a good time to fold UTG with a premium hand too?

It's not about if you play the hand...it's about how you play the hand.....and you don't play it by going bonkers with it to the point where you put all your chips in preflop with an equal stack when you are the 2nd stack at the table in a MTT....That is just well...stupid.Have you heard the term?: "Find a better spot?"

yet you're advocating moves that will result in one of three things: 1) bleed your chips away by limp/folding (if that's what you elect to do to a button raise)2) push back at the button raiser, which he'll most likely call because you're giving him the odds to call, which leaves you in the same position (with less information mind you, because a button raise in this position includes AA and KK, where a button push when you raise most likely does not). 3) leave you with a good but vulnerable hand either out of position to other limpers, or with position against (most likely) two random holdings, leaving you to make an uninformed decision if either of them leads out on a flop with an overcard, and if all unders, you still run the risk of being up against 2pr to these random hands, which raising would have eliminated.

i cannot believe how many people just don't fold.

so you're advocating a fold here? why? you're not guaranteed to pick up quality hands like this for the rest of the tourney, so you have to make moves when you can when you DO pick these hands up. fold if you're fine with 5th.

wow. there is to much wrong with that statment to start with while i'm at work. anybody else?and again. wow :shock:

[alf13 0]

yet you're advocating moves that will result in one of three things: 1) bleed your chips away by limp/folding (if that's what you elect to do to a button raise)2) push back at the button raiser, which he'll most likely call because you're giving him the odds to call, which leaves you in the same position (with less information mind you, because a button raise in this position includes AA and KK, where a button push when you raise most likely does not). 3) leave you with a good but vulnerable hand either out of position to other limpers, or with position against (most likely) two random holdings, leaving you to make an uninformed decision if either of them leads out on a flop with an overcard, and if all unders, you still run the risk of being up against 2pr to these random hands, which raising would have eliminated.

You are assuming too many things............You are arguing that it is a good thing to be in a coin flip for your whole stack when you are 10 handed in a MTT and...are the 2nd chip leader....YEAH...great play dude!!!!!

[Pupsta 0]

another reason why limping is a bad idea: it's giving average hands the odds to limp into the pot, where you'll be playing against them out of position.

i simply don't consider TT to be a premium hand; it's clear you do. TT from UTG is even less valuable. maybe i'm a weak player, but my preference here is to limp, then accept that if the flop is bad for me i've lost nothing more than a BB. if someone shortstacked moves in preflop, i would have to think about it for a bit, considering their earlier play and their position, before calling.

yes, i do consider it a premium hand, when you're a favorite against all but four hands.

[Pupsta 0]

yet you're advocating moves that will result in one of three things: 1) bleed your chips away by limp/folding (if that's what you elect to do to a button raise)2) push back at the button raiser, which he'll most likely call because you're giving him the odds to call, which leaves you in the same position (with less information mind you, because a button raise in this position includes AA and KK, where a button push when you raise most likely does not). 3) leave you with a good but vulnerable hand either out of position to other limpers, or with position against (most likely) two random holdings, leaving you to make an uninformed decision if either of them leads out on a flop with an overcard, and if all unders, you still run the risk of being up against 2pr to these random hands, which raising would have eliminated.

You are assuming too many things............You are arguing that it is a good thing to be in a coin flip for your whole stack when you are 10 handed in a MTT and...are the 2nd chip leader....YEAH...great play dude!!!!!

no, i'm not advocating that it's a good thing to be in that position, but you can't play every hand but aces and kings slow just because there's the possibility that you're a coinflip.How do you play AK suited there?

[Chiggleslap 0]

another reason why limping is a bad idea: it's giving average hands the odds to limp into the pot, where you'll be playing against them out of position.

i simply don't consider TT to be a premium hand; it's clear you do. TT from UTG is even less valuable. maybe i'm a weak player, but my preference here is to limp, then accept that if the flop is bad for me i've lost nothing more than a BB. if someone shortstacked moves in preflop, i would have to think about it for a bit, considering their earlier play and their position, before calling.

yes, i do consider it a premium hand, when you're a favorite against all but four hands.

Ugh.

[Pupsta 0]

I also like how some of you are working with the premise that YOU HAVE TO PLAY THIS TT...YOU JUST GOT TOO!!!!!!!OMG...I got TT...I ain't never folding this thing!...Come hell or high water....I am playing this hand!!!!

yes, you have to play this hand in this position...if you don't believe this, come sit at my tables please.would you be doing the same with AK suited? limp, push back if someone raises? or is that a good time to fold UTG with a premium hand too?

It's not about if you play the hand...it's about how you play the hand.....and you don't play it by going bonkers with it to the point where you put all your chips in preflop with an equal stack when you are the 2nd stack at the table in a MTT....That is just well...stupid.Have you heard the term?: "Find a better spot?"

yet you're advocating moves that will result in one of three things: 1) bleed your chips away by limp/folding (if that's what you elect to do to a button raise)2) push back at the button raiser, which he'll most likely call because you're giving him the odds to call, which leaves you in the same position (with less information mind you, because a button raise in this position includes AA and KK, where a button push when you raise most likely does not). 3) leave you with a good but vulnerable hand either out of position to other limpers, or with position against (most likely) two random holdings, leaving you to make an uninformed decision if either of them leads out on a flop with an overcard, and if all unders, you still run the risk of being up against 2pr to these random hands, which raising would have eliminated.

i cannot believe how many people just don't fold.

so you're advocating a fold here? why? you're not guaranteed to pick up quality hands like this for the rest of the tourney, so you have to make moves when you can when you DO pick these hands up. fold if you're fine with 5th.

wow. there is to much wrong with that statment to start with while i'm at work. anybody else?and again. wow :shock:

please, please, spare me 5 minutes of your precious work time to tell me how i'm so blatantly wrong?

[DB10-2 0]

another reason why limping is a bad idea: it's giving average hands the odds to limp into the pot, where you'll be playing against them out of position.

i simply don't consider TT to be a premium hand; it's clear you do. TT from UTG is even less valuable. maybe i'm a weak player, but my preference here is to limp, then accept that if the flop is bad for me i've lost nothing more than a BB. if someone shortstacked moves in preflop, i would have to think about it for a bit, considering their earlier play and their position, before calling.

yes, i do consider it a premium hand, when you're a favorite against all but four hands.

fair enough, we disagree. with 2nd chip lead at a 10-handed final table of an MTT and out of position, i am going to be very cautious with that hand unless i sense a desperation move from a short stack. you do what you like.

[alf13 0]

another reason why limping is a bad idea: it's giving average hands the odds to limp into the pot, where you'll be playing against them out of position.

i simply don't consider TT to be a premium hand; it's clear you do. TT from UTG is even less valuable. maybe i'm a weak player, but my preference here is to limp, then accept that if the flop is bad for me i've lost nothing more than a BB. if someone shortstacked moves in preflop, i would have to think about it for a bit, considering their earlier play and their position, before calling.

yes, i do consider it a premium hand, when you're a favorite against all but four hands.

Will you put a gun up against your head and pull the trigger? One catch..out of the 6 chambers....2 will have bullets.....Hey...you will be a favorite.....Get my drift....you are talking about playing russian roulette with your tournament life when you don't have to....you are 2nd in chips....for christ's sake.You are advocating a text book Mike Matusow blowup.

[LongOdds 0]

[smaller raise gets the same result, just makes calling the allin tougher. Thats the point man. You dont want to risk your tournament life with 1010 when there is still a lot of poker to playl. You are 2nd or 3rd in chips. Openly accepting any challengers with this hand is just plain foolish. Hands I dont want to see in this situation : AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, AQ, AJ, KQ, KJ, QJ. Thats tooooo many hands. I know, I know. Against the two overs we are a small favorite (you know, the 52 to 48 variety), so I should be ok with that, right? Wrong man. Your up against an equal stack. That means, 48 times out of 100, your heading home with 9th or 10th place money. You dont want to be calling all-ins with 1010 unless your short stacked and need to risk things to accumulate some chips. Put simply, I want either a premium hand (not 1010 UTG), or great position so I can outplay my opponents. You want to call me weak for Limp calling or limp folding my 1010 preflop? Fine. Thats your opinion. Just not the way I think this hand should be played under the circumstances.

[cgrohman 0]

I dont really understand the limp here. If you raise and get re-raised you know where you stand a lot better than if you limp and someone puts in a standard sized raise. Are you going to call that raise after you limp? If so, then 1010 is the same as 22 .

[dmoneypoker 0]

NL Holdem 30 000 in chips Blinds 1000 - 20002nd chip leader at the final table. First hand.I have 10 10 under the gun and bet out 6500 leaving me with 23500. total chips in play is 189000. Small blind has 60 000.Everyone Folds to the button who pushes all on for 22000. the two blinds fold and you have a decision to make. You know that the guy on the button i very agressive at times from prior encounters. What do you do? Call of fold?

you have no idea when you are going to pick up another premium hand. play to win the tournament not to survive, make the call. it's an easy play if you ask me.

[alf13 0]

Thats the point man. You dont want to risk your tournament life with 1010 when there is still a lot of poker to playl. You are 2nd or 3rd in chips. Openly accepting any challengers with this hand is just plain foolish. Hands I dont want to see in this situation : AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, AQ, AJ, KQ, KJ, QJ. Thats tooooo many hands. I know, I know. Against the two overs we are a small favorite (you know, the 52 to 48 variety), so I should be ok with that, right? Wrong man. Your up against an equal stack. That means, 48 times out of 100, your heading home with 9th or 10th place money. You dont want to be calling all-ins with 1010 unless your short stacked and need to risk things to accumulate some chips. Put simply, I want either a premium hand (not 1010 UTG), or great position so I can outplay my opponents. You want to call me weak for Limp calling or limp folding my 1010 preflop? Fine. Thats your opinion. Just not the way I think this hand should be played under the circumstances.

Well said.

[AC BillP 0]

It's very close to me. There's $100,000 in play outside the guy with 22K and 60K, which means you have at 22K w/o call-- double the average stack of other 7 players. I think most name players would call to try to win the tournament. What if the guy has 88 and was putting you on AJ and hoped for a fold?? Basically if you're happy with 3rd or 4th fold, if the money total isn't that great to you, call and go for the win. If you lose you still have average chips and a shot among equals.

[Pupsta 0]

another reason why limping is a bad idea: it's giving average hands the odds to limp into the pot, where you'll be playing against them out of position.

i simply don't consider TT to be a premium hand; it's clear you do. TT from UTG is even less valuable. maybe i'm a weak player, but my preference here is to limp, then accept that if the flop is bad for me i've lost nothing more than a BB. if someone shortstacked moves in preflop, i would have to think about it for a bit, considering their earlier play and their position, before calling.

yes, i do consider it a premium hand, when you're a favorite against all but four hands.

Will you put a gun up against your head and pull the trigger? One catch..out of the 6 chambers....2 will have bullets.....Hey...you will be a favorite.....Get my drift....you are talking about playing russian roulette with your tournament life when you don't have to....you are 2nd in chips....for christ's sake.You are advocating a text book Mike Matusow blowup.

and you're advocating putting yourself in more difficult decisions for all of your chips. you limp utg, button raises to 8000, what's your move? fold, push, or call?if you fold, you're advocating limp/fold, which is pathetically weak with TT.if you call, what's your move if an overcard falls? doesn't matter which one, say Q74, J26, K83, A97, whatever.if you push, aren't you advocating a coinflip for the rest of your chips as well? he obviously has the odds to call now, pretty much with any 2 cards that he'd raise with.

[Pupsta 0]

[smaller raise gets the same result, just makes calling the allin tougher. Thats the point man. You dont want to risk your tournament life with 1010 when there is still a lot of poker to playl. You are 2nd or 3rd in chips. Openly accepting any challengers with this hand is just plain foolish. Hands I dont want to see in this situation : AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, AQ, AJ, KQ, KJ, QJ. Thats tooooo many hands. I know, I know. Against the two overs we are a small favorite (you know, the 52 to 48 variety), so I should be ok with that, right? Wrong man. Your up against an equal stack. That means, 48 times out of 100, your heading home with 9th or 10th place money. You dont want to be calling all-ins with 1010 unless your short stacked and need to risk things to accumulate some chips. Put simply, I want either a premium hand (not 1010 UTG), or great position so I can outplay my opponents. You want to call me weak for Limp calling or limp folding my 1010 preflop? Fine. Thats your opinion. Just not the way I think this hand should be played under the circumstances.

you will see these hands for sure if you limp, because they'll be getting the odds to come in behind you (the AJ, KQ, KJ, QJ anyway..the rest were playing no matter what). You really think that QJ or KJ comes over the top of your raise, or even calls your raise for that matter?

[alf13 0]

and you're advocating putting yourself in more difficult decisions for all of your chips. you limp utg, button raises to 8000, what's your move? fold, push, or call?if you fold, you're advocating limp/fold, which is pathetically weak with TT.if you call, what's your move if an overcard falls? doesn't matter which one, say Q74, J26, K83, A97, whatever.if you push, aren't you advocating a coinflip for the rest of your chips as well? he obviously has the odds to call now, pretty much with any 2 cards that he'd raise with.

Now you see why taking a flop can be to your advantage?You are dealing with too many what ifs...